Posted by: the warrioress | September 17, 2013

An Agenda to Deceive

In a world where most are intelligent, well read, and knowledgeable about a host of things, why would someone appear with an agenda to deceive?

What would such an individual have to gain? How do we all learn to recognize this kind of agenda now and in the future, even if we don’t believe and are not Christian?

Scripture clearly tells us that in the last days false teachers, false prophets, and even false Christ’s will appear. Eventually some of these will do signs and wonders and may deceive even the very elect of God through their false doctrines and teachings. Christians have to be aware of this and be on the look out for those who are trying to blatantly trick us through false teaching. Why?

False teachers have a motivation; their agenda is anything but godly — they are being led by the god of this world, Satan. False teachers are helping the author of confusion, Satan, either willingly or even unwillingly. They have given permission in their lives at some point and have opened the door to Satan and confusion. They have gotten off that narrow path and have begun wandering in darkness. They are empowered by the father of lies, Satan. Their intent has unintentionally become an agenda to deceive those who may have opportunity to come to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins — but they also desire to deceive the very people who love God most, their very own Christian brethren. And deceive they will, if we let them.

We can recognize a false teacher or a false prophet by the very fact that he or she will attempt to negate that which has actual power. The blood of Jesus Christ has power and it can and will save you from your sins if you only reach out and ask for this salvation, calling out to Jesus Christ, and believing and stating that Jesus Christ is your Lord. If you believe that He died on the cross for your sins, that He shed His blood in order to save you, if you ask Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins, and you agree that you repent those sins, (desire to change), you will be forgiven and you will have eternal life.

False teachers internally know what has power and what does not. Attempting to negate any of the important parts of the bible that I already mentioned in my last post, should immediately show you the agenda of the false teacher. Anyone who claims to doubt or not believe in Jesus’ death on the cross, His coming to earth in a human. fleshly body, (His divinity), His rising from the dead on the third day, His ascension to the Father, His sovereignty as the son of God, the virgin birth, the miracles Christ did, and various other beams in the structure and foundation of what the apostles of Christ preached, is someone with an agenda to prevent your salvation.

Even if you don’t believe or want the salvation of Jesus Christ, you should be able to spot what’s going on; most people don’t care to be scammed or tricked; they don’t care to appear so foolish. Why allow someone to deny you the very thing you have a right to deny for yourself, or choose for yourself if you decide to. You need to be completely aware of your choices and be informed when making your decisions; the last thing any of us needs is to be misled or tricked by one who has chosen to serve the father of lies, who is in league with the author of confusion.

Satan is sly and he has minions galore to trick mankind because he knows that time is short. Do not be deceived by false teachers and learn how to recognize them. There is no reason on earth why someone would choose to completely neutralize Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for you, except to prevent your salvation. When you see this kind of thing occurring, it should be instantaneous that you say to yourself, “Ahh, another one who is hostile to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He wants to prevent me from the blood-saving-grace of Jesus Christ who died so that I might have eternal life and go before God with an intercessor, so that I am holy in the eyes of God, despite my sinful nature.”

Bingo. This kind of reaction should become second nature as soon as red flashing warning lights in your head start to go off.

If you cannot understand what I’m talking about and cannot spot what I’ve brought forward when it is occurring, you may be confused or already deceived and deluded. There actually is a war occurring for the very souls of mankind. We should all make our choice, informed, rather than tricked and thus having the free gift of salvation stolen from us.

Please remember these passages:

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets (teachers) are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.” (1 John 4:1-3)
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, and against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand it, the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (Ephesians 6:1-13)
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world. (1 Peter 5:8-9)

There are false teachers galore writing popular, best-selling books. Bishop John Shelby Spong is one such example. Spong denies Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Biblically, according to scripture, this makes Spong writing and teaching falsely. Who said so? The bible said so. Jesus Christ said so, according to the bible.

We have already been warned that we would be bombarded with the false in the last days and we are being quite literally bombarded continuously from every direction possible. It would be funny if it weren’t so absolutely serious. My posts on this topic are for the benefit of those who care where their souls are heading. If you don’t believe you have a soul, perhaps this will not matter to you, but there is the distinct possibility that you may be wrong so if for no other reason, you may want to consider what I’m writing carefully and remember it down the road as time moves on.

Those that read this posting need to be aware that “Bishop” Spong is deluded. He blatantly states in his writings that the bible is “fantasy,” and so is the divinity of Jesus, along with Jesus’ time here in a human fleshly body. The bible is extremely clear, no matter which translation you are reading from, that those who deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh are antichrist. Seems pretty clear to me. Is this not clear for someone?

Anti-christ means “against Christ.”

Now, I don’t think there’s a translation in the world that can get that wrong, nor can anyone here twist the intent of these words.

Yes, John Shelby Spong is false, and those who desire to learn false teachings will have to lie in the bed that they make for themselves; I don’t intend to, nor will I keep silent while some innocent trusts Spong and reads and believes his garbage through their own naivety. Once I’ve given my input and warning, I feel I’ve given all I can in an honest attempt to let people know who and what they are dealing with.

Rescuing the Gospel from Bishop John Shelby Spong!

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/spong.html

There are so many other writers who claim Christianity, but who are now reinventing the bible and through their new “revelations,” potentially bringing us a “new gospel.”  Here are just a few that I have researched a little enough to know to approach and read with much caution:

Bart Ehrman – “About nine or ten years ago I came to realize that I simply no longer believed the Christian message. A large part of my movement away from the faith was driven by my concern for suffering. I simply no longer could hold to the view—which I took to be essential to Christian faith—that God was active in the world, that he answered prayer, that he intervened on behalf of his faithful, that he brought salvation in the past and that in the future, eventually in the coming eschaton, he would set to rights all that was wrong, that he would vindicate his name and his people and bring in a good kingdom (either at our deaths or here on earth in a future utopian existence).” Source

Marcus Borg –  believes there was no bodily, physical resurrection of Jesus; this was spiritual instead. Source

Peter Enns – does not believe in the Genesis account of creation, attempts to make Genesis fit into the science/secular perspective of evolution, and furthers this in a vast array of other unorthodox speculations. The problem is how far will he go in his attempt at redefining Christianity? Source

Robert Shuller – New Age psychology mixed with biblical beliefs could potentially become problematic in a lot of various ways. Source

There are, of course, countless others I have not even begun to review.

The point is this:  We have to become aware of what is happening and become wary. Line everything up with the bible if someone recommends a “Christian” author/writer/teacher/preacher. If things don’t line up, take a pass. This is what I recommend. These are not the times to be redefining the bible/the Gospel.

More than 30 years ago, Vance Havner, in his book “Playing Marbles with Diamonds,” offered the following:

“The devil is not fighting religion; he is too smart for that. He is producing a counterfeit Christianity so much like the real one that good Christians are afraid to speak out against it. … We are plainly told in the Scriptures that in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine and will depart from the truth and heap to themselves teachers to tickle their ears. We live in an epidemic of this itch, and popular preachers have developed ear-tickling to a fine art. Today, the angle is to avoid “negative” preaching and accentuate only the positive.”

BE CAREFUL.

Sincerely. Be very careful.

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Responses

  1. You have said it all but this people will belive something that some one says rather than take the time to check it out for themselves. President , John Kennedy once said I believe “Tell a lie often enough and people will belive its the truth” President

  2. Interresting. The Bible has been re-invented and re-interpreted by believers again and again throughout history, which is why there are thousands of denominations of Christianity. Do you consider your version to have had less cultural changes to it, than all the others?

    A great many of Christians from century to century have in all sincerity believed, that the “end times” are within their own lifetime and reported having wittnessed the signs of this (including false prophets) – alledgedly starting from Jesus himself. Why is it they were wrong?

    How do you know, that your interpretation is any more accurate, than that of a trained theologian such as bishop Spong? How do you know you are not deluded by the devil?

    Bishop Spong has read the very same Bible you and I did, but it convinced the three of us of completely different things. If this is the main communication between all-mighty creator and humanity, it is not very well composed, as it leaves so much open to interpretation and to me seems totally indistinguishable from all the other holy scriptures of other religions and other historical folktales. Is there some particular difference about it you could point out?

    What makes us today so important, that the world will end now, when it has not ended in some 2000 years dispite the many expectations of Christians?

  3. Hi Rautakyy,

    Thanks for coming visiting over to my blog!
    The various interpretations of the bible don’t detract from the big picture, the bigger message, the fundamentals of Christianity that the religion is based upon. What particular version are you alluding to?
    I read all of the different versions and enjoy them all.

    You don’t have the slightest idea if the ancient prophets were “wrong.” We don’t even know how long a day in the bible actually is in our real time. God made the world in six days and on the seventh day rested. Obviously time is not the same for God as it is for us. The end times could last through whole lifetimes of Christ’s followers from then to now.

    Bishop Spong is no longer a bishop, first of all, Rautakyy. I don’t believe Spong is a “theologian” either. I know I’m not deluded by the devil because I believe that Jesus came in a fleshly human body but was still divine, the Son of God. The bible tells us that he who does not believe this is ANTICHRIST. Spong does not believe what the bible says.

    Biblical prophecy is occurring, according to countless “theologians,” pastors, and the well-read studious. I don’t think that we’re so important; I just think that the world is becoming saturated with the gospel. It’s more than time for the end of the story to finish playing out. The bible tells us what to look for specifically so that we’ll know we’re close to the end times.

  4. Dr. Denis,

    People are foolish if they naively trust instead of researching carefully for themselves. I really hope more Christians will attempt to get this across to others, the saved and unsaved.

  5. Here is some of what Spong believes:

    “Bishop Spong denies virtually everything about Jesus that orthodox Christianity has believed for the last two millennia. The virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the atoning death on the cross, the resurrection, the miracles, everything that would verify the biblical claims of Christ’s authority and uniqueness are discounted, and yet Spong refers to Jesus as Lord and God’s only Son. How can this be? Spong argues that “the essence of Christ was confused with the form in which that essence was communicated.”{10} All the biblical writers got it wrong. The first century mentality that they brought to the subject became universalized in the text of the Bible and eventually entered into the creeds of Christianity. According to Spong, Mark would never have understood or accepted the idea of an incarnation and Paul “quite obviously was not a trinitarian.”{11} Christ is “the hero of a thousand faces” and “many things to many people.”{12} “All of them are Christ and none of them is Christ.”{13} He adds that, “A Christianity that is not changing is a Christianity that is dying.”

    “The problem with all this is that the Bible, the primary record we have of Jesus’ life and teachings bears nothing similar to Spong’s views. It seems that he would be much better off being a disciple of Mahatma Gandhi who believed that God is Supreme Good and that our goal in life is “self-realization.”

    “Bishop John Spong advocates a form of Christianity often called universalism. It teaches that everyone will experience salvation of some sort and that what you believe is irrelevant. All that really matters is that one act morally. In Bishop Spong’s view, acting morally is tied to an all-inclusive, totally tolerant Christianity that rejects the notion of sin and atonement. He strips Christianity of its historical tenets fearing that all the details will alienate the modern mind.”

    From “Rescuing the Gospel From Bishop Spong

    http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/spong.html

  6. […] An Agenda to Deceive (lifeofafemalebiblewarrior.wordpress.com) […]

  7. Warrioress, thank you for your civil and thought out response.

    There are a lot of fundamentals of Christianity and they do differ from century to century and from sect to sect, even though it seems fashionable nowadays to claim they are the same for every one. I suppose some of them are the same like expectation of salvation through faith. Which I find kind of absurd, because it is making gullibility into a virtue.

    As far as I know the oldest form of Christianity is the Kopitian church in Egypt, which has changed very little in comparrison to other sects, but it bears the obvious cultural heritage of it’s area as do all Christian sects. As an ouside observer it seems to me, that the Christianity represented by different sects is more about the cultural influence of the people who are members of any particular sect. And they all are equally convinced, that it is their particular kind of view on the Bible, that is right and everybody else has got it totally wrong. Gods are funny in that they allways agree whith their adherents who is right about them.

    The two second oldest forms of Christianity are Roman Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy, that separated centuries ago and have since both changed a lot and spawned many other sects, that all at first claim to return to the original message, but then start to change as well. Such is human culture. Under pressure to change all the time. Mind you, the interpretations of what it means to return to the “original message” has differed very much from sect to sect. Who got it right? The Hussites perhaps, or the Cathars? They got both annihilated by other Christians many of whom sincerely thought they were doing their gods will. Did they?

    Does it not disturb you how much the idea that gods time is different from our time sounds like an excuse to people writing the Bible being totally ignorant (and uninformed by their god) of how long it really took? Why would the Bible use human terms of days as a method to convey the timeline of the creation, if it means something completely different? That makes no sense and in effect is an obvious lie, if it is uttered by a god who should know better. If I tell you I am going to pay 13 billion dollars for your old car and then when you have given your car to me you recieve only seven dollars from me, I claim that to me the 13 billion dollars means seven of your dollars, have I not lied to you? Or what would you call that?

    The only way of evaluating wether the ancient prophets (or later Christian preachers) were wrong, or not, is by my human understanding. Accepting that they must have been right alltough all the evidence compells me to think otherwise because a particular old book demands they were right is rather backwards logic, is it not?

    Spong is a trained theologian. You do not get to be a bishop whithout long theological studies, do you? His “problem” seems to have been, that he also got familiar whith the scientific rigours and methodology of historical research, that the Jesus story is indeed indistinguishable from any other historical folktales. His case just goes to show how much of faith in any particular deities is about ignorance. Historical research gives us better and better information about past stuff and the less such research is limited by preconceptions of faith, the less likely it is, that holding to historical integrity allows for miracles (such as virgin births so common in religions in the Mediterranean of antiquity) and other unnatural events to be taken at face value.

    You say Spong does not believe what the Bible says, but to me it seems more like you do not believe what Spong, or I for that matter, believe the Bible says. Do you think you should stone to death unruly kids? Do you eat pork even though it is a sin? Do you think that slaves should be obidient to their owner? Have you sold all of your property and given all the money to the congregation? All of these commands are literally in the Bible. Are they not? Are they not the part of the original message?

    Do you believe what the current pope believes the Bible says? Do you believe your local minister, priest, or what ever you call your ritual expert believes it says? What a fortunate coincidence for you, if he happens to be right, if you hold similar beliefs about what it says in the Bible. And especially so, if the what the Bible says has anything to do whith modern reality, more than for example what the Mahabharata, the Edda, or the Kalevala say. But, what if you are wrong? How can you tell, if you have allready excluded your reasoning abilities and even your right to use them in evaluating your god, because he is ultimately so mysterious and so much more intelligent than you, that you have no right to second guess his morally questionable acts? Or do you think for example ethnic cleansing is not morally questionable?

    Is your faith and salvation based on the lottery of where and when you happened to be born and that is only a result of because your god loves you more than me? Before we were even born? What kind of god is that?

    You think “the world is becoming saturated with the gospel”, but are you not aware of the legions of Christians and priests and preachers throughout centuries of two millenia who have been convinced that the world was going to end in their times? Why were they all wrong?

  8. […] An Agenda to Deceive (lifeofafemalebiblewarrior.wordpress.com) […]

  9. Amen sister Adrienne. Thank you!!!! If God’s people—those who have received Christ as Savior, been washed clean by His blood, are given a new life, filled the Holy Spirit and have become the Father’s adopted children—would be obedient to the Lord’s Word, they would not be fooled.
    Not by any New York Times best-selling author or some tele-evangelist with America’s largest churches!
    I treasure, with exceeding joy the relationship I am able to have with Almighty God through salvation, daily renewal of the mind (ONLY through reading/studying the Word) and time in prayer…
    Blessings!!!
    Stephanie

  10. @rautakyy,

    There aren’t a lot of fundamentals of Christianity. I’m not sure what Christianity you’re talking about. If you want to include the gnostics, they are not Christian. Their version is false. I don’t know about the other sects in other countries, but I don’t consider any other “holy” books as fundamentalist to Christianity. The Holy Bible is the Christian book for Christians.

    The fundamentals of Christianity are clear for all Christians. They are the building blocks that Christianity is built upon. They are laid out by the apostles of Jesus Christ for all followers of Jesus. Yes, we do receive salvation through faith, not works, lest we be inclined to boast of our own glory.

    Roman Catholicism has already fallen into apostasy. I couldn’t say about Greek Orthodoxy. Various interpretations of the bible end up saying the same thing in a different paraphrase. The fundamentals exist among all Christians. There is a foundational message, “the good news/the gospel/the message of salvation.” There are foundational beliefs. A determination to write a new gospel is just that — a new gospel. We are sticking with the old one, thanks. What has been added to and taken away from the bible’s original concept/message are unacceptable, according to the bible.

    No, it does not disturb me that God’s time is different from our time. It makes perfect sense. It’s akin to another dimension in time. And on the other hand, if God did make the world in six days, well that’s fine too. The bible does not lie so no, there are no obvious lies within the bible.

    No, it’s not “backward’s logic” to believe that the prophets and writers of old were correct/right. It’s logic that they were right because their writings were given to them by GOD.

    Spong is writing a new gospel. We’ve already been advised what to do with new gospels. The bible tells us that those who believe that Jesus Christ did not come in a fleshly human body are antichrist. I believe the bible. I do not believe what anyone else says. I believe the bible, period. I recommend that every single follower of Jesus Christ do the same. Test everything against the bible. If it lines up, it’s good to go.

    The OT is a record of what occurred when Christians were under the law of Moses. Now that we have Jesus Christ as our mediator, who died for our sins, we are no longer under Mosaic law. We are under grace. We do not have to follow old testament law.

    The current pope has fallen into apostasy, just as the bible predicted many would do. The bible tells us that there will be a falling away. And there has been.

    Our faith in Jesus Christ, which makes us Christian, and also belief, forgiveness of sin, and repentance, culminating in baptism by water, joins us as the body of Christ. There is ONE body. One savior. One God, and one way to get to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    No one knows the day or the hour that the world is going to end, R., but there are signs along the way that point that we are close. These signs have already been occurring/occurred. We are close, according to what is written.

    Thank you again for sharing your thoughts here on my blog.

  11. Streim,

    God bless you, sis. I agree. If we know the bible and are standing firm within the foundation of the bible, we will not be deceived. No compromise!

  12. Christians have been talkin’ about the “last days” since Jesus’ time. Yawn.

    Until we know what “godly motivation” is, I won’t be able to tell if these Devil-inspired authors intents are any more “godly” than others. Maybe they have “godly” motivations but their actions are devilish because Yahweh allowed them to be deceived — who knows. You still have to answer TWF’s questions on that issue.

    It is tempting to accuse those who teach against something you value as being Evil.

    Story:

    I am not a big Obama fan on many fronts — I love him on others.
    But when talking about health care around the dinner table, they picked up on my negative opinions.

    So, one day, they told me how they told a classmate how they thought Obama was stupid and evil. OUCH! I never said that of course, but I obviously implied it. So we spent time then (and since) where I bragged about Obama — his kindness to family, his care about people, his intelligence. I told my friends the names of many friends who we love, respect and think more intelligent than me but whom I disagree on some politics. They got it. You can disagree with someone without feeling they are inspired by the devil, evil, stupid, devious and much more. The world is not black-and-white — no matter what ancient documents tempt us to believe.

    As to all the other doctrinal quibbles within your Christian circles, I won’t enter here. Instead, I am pointing at a deeper principle: deep understanding.

  13. @warrioress, you may consider other Christians as false, but to me anyone who claims to be a Christian effectively is that. I have no way of evaluating wether some form of Christianity is true or false. They all have their own interpretations of what the ancient scriptures mean. Mostly their truth claims are all based on faith, which to me is a very poor way of determining wether if any particular claim is true or not, if not for any other reason, but because there are so many contradicting faiths in the world.

    What is so bad about boasting of a good deed you have actually achieved? Who is hurt by you being proud of a good deed?

    I bet the Roman Catholics could say your form of Christianity is a form of apostasy. The Roman Catholics are indeed one of the oldest forms of Christianity, but as I said all forms of Christianity have changed throughout generations. That is what I mean by re-inventing the religion over and over again.

    Science is the best method we humans have to determine wether something is for real or not. It has clearly demonstrated that not the world and defenately not the universe were created in six days. A lot of Christians have accepted this and now refer to these six days only as a metaphor, but before science could establish how long the emergence of the universe as we know it and planet earth took, people used to believe it was only six literal days. Was your god trying to decieve these people or what? If the book claims it took six days when we know it took a bit longer than that, then such a claim is untrue. If it is alledgedly made by someone like a god who should know better, then it is a lie. There is no way around this. How do you know the Bible does not lie? How can you demonstrate that? If it is not demonstrable, then why should anyone believe it is so? A lot of people share your sentiment exept they think the Quran does not lie, but how can you tell wether if they are wrong or not? Taking an old book at face value is rather unintelligent.

    How do you know the writings about the ancient prophets were prophesies given to them by a god? If some of those prophesies became true, how do we know wether if they were actually written after the fact, or if they were just good guesses? What about some of those prophesies that literally failed? Like when Ezekiel professed, that Nebuchadnessar would conquer Egypt, but he never did, or when Ezekiel claimed that Nebuchadnessar would leave no stone standing of Tyre, but he could not conquer her either.

    If you believe the Bible to be the ultimate authority and test everything against it whith the preconception that the Bible is true no matter what, then what is your reason to believe it? If you believe it because you believe it, that is absurd and circular logic. Is it not?

    Fine, you think the OT laws do no longer abide to you. OK by me. Then I suppose you do not think eating pig, or not having tassels in every corner of your cloack are important. For centuries your god thought they were more important laws than not having sex whith a minor, though. I suppose you then think your god also changed his mind about homosexuality of men being an abomination (as he never refers to homosexuality of women), did he? A lot of Christians seem to think it was just the sacrificial law that was overruled by Jesus dying and that the ten commands (and a lot of the 600 other rules) are still in power, because Jesus is reported to have said he did not come to take down the old law, but to enforce it.

    But the command for a slave to be obidient to the master is from the NT. Are you OK whith that? From the NT is also the command to sell all your property and give all of the money to the congregation. Have you yet achieved this? If you have not, I could call you out on hypocricy, right? Though in that sense all Christians I know are hypocritical. ;) But it is a very strong part of the original message. Remember what happened to Ananias and Saphira?

    How do you know the Pople has fallen into apostasy and not you? The pope and a lot of his followers seem pretty sincere about their belief that you other Christians are the ones fallen in apostasy. And they base their faith on the very same book as you do. Do they not?

    How do you know these rituals you refer to are in any connection to any imaginable creator of the entire universe, all the billions of starsystems and millions of galaxies? Do they not seem even a little bit primitive cultural traits of human beings in comparrison to the vastness of the universe and in comparrison to so many human rituals to so many different gods? Why do you need to undergo these rituals to connect whith your god? Could he not in his omnipotent capcity be able to connect to individuals on more personal level and more directly, if he actually cares about us?

    Yes, you could have some examples of “signs”, but do you not think the previous Christians throughout centuries who thought the world was going to end in their times also thought they had recognized those “signs”? What makes you so bold, that your understanding of the “signs” is higher than those of the past generations of Christians who thought the world was going to end in their times, but it did not?

    You are quite wellcome. I like to share my thoughts whith people who remain civil in their expression and what I understand from your about page, religion has served you well in dire need for help. In my experience, often people who have gone through some form of distress, like you have, in their lives are more prone to emphatize other peoples positions and sometimes also even other views.

  14. rautakyy you said:

    What is so bad about boasting of a good deed you have actually achieved? Who is hurt by you being proud of a good deed?

    Nothing is wrong with boasting about one’s good works — the point of that particular idea of scripture is that we cannot redeem or save ourselves through our “good works.” We can never be good enough. We are not “holy” and will never be no matter how hard we try. Only Jesus Christ and His shed blood can cleanse us before God and make us “holy.” And God offered us this as a free gift that we cannot earn of our own accord.

    God wasn’t trying to deceive people in the discussion on how old the earth is or how long it took to create it. I know the bible doesn’t lie because it says that “from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

    And here’s something that reviews at length why the bible is truth:

    http://www.essentialbibleblog.com/2013/03/top-10-reasons-bible-is-true.html

    You also said:

    If you believe the Bible to be the ultimate authority and test everything against it whith the preconception that the Bible is true no matter what, then what is your reason to believe it? If you believe it because you believe it, that is absurd and circular logic. Is it not?

    http://www.essentialbibleblog.com/2013/03/top-10-reasons-bible-is-true.html

    Jesus explained to us that there are two commandments that fulfill the law and the prophets. “Love the Lord you God with all of your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.” We are no longer chained to OT law. Jesus has given us a new law of love.

    I think it’s important that we attempt to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and what He asked of us in all we do, in daily living experiences. There is an obvious balance, however, that is required. We’re to give unto Cesears what is rightfully his (the government), meaning pay our bills/debts, and give from there how God would require us to give, sharing generously with others.

    As for commands about slavery, I believe this is meant in a metaphorical way in that it’s speaking about one’s employee and employer perhaps. There are obvious metaphors and parables within the bible. Not all of it is to be taken actually literally; even renowned, well-studied, Evangelical bible scholars accept this.

    The Pope is attempting to “tickle the ears” of mankind with what they want to hear rather than realize and accept what the bible actually says. The Pope wants to be inclusive, and believe in “universal-ism,” because it’s difficult to tell people what the bible actually says; it’s make them uncomfortable because it’s not a pretty, inclusive, kumbaya kind of truth. This is why the Pope has fallen into apostasy.

    Christians today can only surmise when the world is going to end, but no one really has a clue, admittedly. We can only go upon what’s occurring around us and speculate. Lot’s of Christians are doing exactly that — speculating. They are speculating based upon how they interpret what the bible says. As Christians, we are to be watchful, but recognize that no one knows the day or the hour that Christ will return.

    I do empathize with others and understand their varying points of view. I respect their right to those points of view, but when it comes to how we meet and get to know God, there are specific directions and instructions within the bible that guide us on how to do this. Why not follow them?

  15. @Warrioress, thanks for the links I will look them up whith good time, but for now I only respond to your own words, otherwise this conversation gets really bogged. Fair enough?

    I certainly agree whith you, that we are not “holy”. We are humans, mammals, animals and life forms directly related to all other life forms we know. We are sentient, self aware and limited. Now, if it is inherent to us to be “not good enough”, then that is not the fault of any individual, is it? How does one deserve a punishment for being inherently something someone else created one as? Does not the responsibility then fall unto the alledged creator? We can choose our actions, but not what we are.

    You know the Bible does not lie, because it says it does not lie? Are you aware that the Quran also says it does not lie? And there are a bunch of notable Muslim theologians and apologists who can confirm this through their argumentation. Why should the Bible be counted as any more convincing than the Quran? I find them both equally lacking.

    Is the alledgedly omnipotent entity unable, or unwilling to create either beings who could all understand the message correctly, or send a message that would be equally understandable to all these created beings?

    There is a lot of stuff in the Bible, that has later been proven to be literally false, that the previous generations used to think as literally true (and some people still do dispite the evidence). Because our information about reality has increased and subsequently our morals has grown better these false, or immoral statements have been moved from the literal side of interpretations to the metaphorical side.

    Not least of these is the issue about slavery, but a lot of people who enslaved other people genuinly thought that the Bible gave them the permission to do so. Does the alledged author not bear any responsibility for this “misinterpretation” and the suffering it caused? They did not suffer from their misinterpretation, but a lot of other people did. If the author is indeed omnipotent and omniscient, then that same author is in direct responsibility for this sincere misconception and the resulting violence and suffering. But even so, how do you know wether if something in the Bible is a metaphor and not for example a literal license to own people as property?

    Is the direct command in the New Testament to sell all your property and give the money to the congregation also a metaphor? If it is, how are we to know what in the Bible is metaphorical and what is for real? Is the resurrection of Jesus ultimately only a metaphor of something? Where do you draw the line of what is metaphorical and what is an actual direct description, or a commandment from the alledged creator of galaxies?

    I also like some of the simple teachings of Jesus, but I can also appriciate a lot of moral teachings of Buddha. Should I compare the two to determine wether following one leads me to heaven, or to nirvana? Neither has presented any evidence at all, that such concepts as heaven, or nirvana are actually real. That fact does not diminsh the value of good moral teaching, but it reminds us, that good morals should be accepted as what it is, not based on the authority of the teacher, but on the logic of the teaching itself. Right?


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