Posted by: the warrioress | June 9, 2012

Militant Atheism

Sign of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, ...

Sign of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, in Denver, Colorado. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

There is type of atheism that is growing and spreading that I’ll call “militant atheism.” This isn’t something that always was, as some might try to have us believe; this isn’t a silent, now suddenly very vocal minority. Militant atheism is something that has developed within the last decade that is extreme, fundamentalist, and frankly, dangerous.

I’ve done several posts on this phenomenon before, citing material where even their own, (other atheists), are rejecting these individuals. It’s interesting to note that even within the belief system of atheism, there are aggressive, angry extremes akin to the Westboro Baptist Church. This is the other side of the fundamentalist coin to that.

English: Front and back of the atheist sign at...

English: Front and back of the atheist sign at the Wisconsin State Capitol. Released with a GNU license by the Freedom From Religion Foundation to represent the sign in promotion. (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

When you have other atheists cringing and desirous of separating themselves from these anti-theist, anti-religious people who want to completely do away with religion, you need to pay close attention why.

How can you recognize a “militant atheist?” There are many examples and ways of identifying their writings. Some are angry but still rational and reasonable. The primary thing these folk have in common though, are that they are determined to stamp out religion through ridiculing it from existence; thus they will insult, and normally be quite hostile to any and everything religious that has to do with Christianity the bible, faith, or even other types of religion like Islam.

Despite the thoroughly bloody history of atheism, (Communist atheism, state atheism), atheists insist that their hands are spotless, that they have never spilled blood during world history. We can look at countries embracing atheism in the past and see that disbelieving hands have more blood on them than believing hands ever did; nevertheless, the peddling of their non-belief and propagandizing that militant atheists have a higher morality, and  a better way of viewing reality and the world around us, are pervasive.

Freedom From Religion Foundation

Freedom From Religion Foundation (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

These atheists are actually evangelical. They are attempting to evangelize the world populace and are especially focused upon America. These are the folks from the Freedom From Religion Foundation and the Godless Americans. These are “in your face” atheist soldiers. They are insistent that you recognize God as “the invisible man” or the “flying spagetti monster” and turn from your faith. These people will spread a hostile message and if you do not agree, you will find yourself condescended to, told off, and lectured on the evils of religion.

Conservapedia tells us:

Militant atheism is a term applied to atheism which is hostile towards religion.[2][3][4][5][6][7] Militant atheists have a desire to propagate the doctrine,[3][8] and differ from moderate atheists because they hold religion to be harmful.[4][3][2] Militant atheism was an integral part of the materialism of Marxism-Leninism,[9][10] and significant in the French Revolution,[11] atheist states such as the Soviet Union,[12][13] and Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.[14] The term has also been applied to political thinkers.[15] Recently the term militant atheist has been used to describe the New Atheism movement,[16] which is characterized by the belief that religion “should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized and exposed by rational argument wherever its influence arises.”[17][18][19]

www.conservapedia.com/Militant_atheism

The following quote by Julian Baggini, a committed atheist author, summarizes militant atheism eloquently.

Although …atheism Is not necessarily hostile to religion, there are, of course some atheists who are hostile to religion, and not just fundamentalist religions….Atheism which is actively hostile to religion I would call militant. To be hostile in this sense requires more than just strong disagreement with religion—it requires something verging on hatred and is characterized by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious beliefs. Militant atheists tend to make one or both of two claims that atheists do not. The first is that religion is demonstrably false or nonsense, and the second is that it is usually or always harmful. (1)

     Thus, militant atheism is driven by a hatred and hostility toward “any kind” of religion — without distinction. This high level of hostility blinds them to the good religion has done, or is doing, and fails to acknowledge that there is a wide variety of religion expressions ranging from extremist groups, on one side of the belief continuum, to very sincere, loving and service-oriented groups on the other side. Unfortunately, it is this kind of rage that has led to extreme forms of militant atheism in the past that led to the persecution of religions and the killing of a great many, as it has occurred in Communist countries.

     This site is concerned about their determination and growth and takes a stand against them by spotlighting their extremism, their lies and their agenda.”

___________________

(1) Baggini, Julian, Atheism a Very Short Introduction. (New York: Oxford University Press, 2003), 101.

http://atheismexposed.tripod.com/what_is_militant_atheism.htm

Atheism

Atheism (Photo credit: atheism)

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Responses

  1. Lol, do you really think it’s so remarkable that some atheists would siagree with others over appropriate conduct? If so, either you never noticed that happens within every ideological orientation, or you are holding atheists to a contrived standard. Bottom line is that you seem to prefer your unbeliebvers quiet.

    Dangerous?

    Knock it off.

  2. Yes, people can be annoying, be they atheist or theist. As atheism is not a religion, atheist do not follow one single philosophy, except for non-belief. You can find atheists that are left-wing, right-wing, and all the colors of the rainbow. And in America they would not be militant if there was a true separation of Church and State, that is, if America was a truly secular nation.

    On your quote of Julian Baggini:

    “The first is that religion is demonstrably false or nonsense, and the second is that it si usually or always harmful.”

    The first premis is pain stupid. You cannot be an atheist of any sort, if you believe that religion is true. If you believe that a deity does not exist…to worship one would be infelicitous, just like believing in the tooth fairy. On the second premise you can have room for debate. I do not deny that good works can come from religion, but very grievous offenses against man-kind have come in the name of religion.

  3. By the way:

    The biggest threat on America today is not communism, its moving America towards a Fascist Theocracy

    Frank Zappa

  4. In every walk of life you are going to find someone who will argue against any point you may or may not have. IE: the comment before mine. To me that means they are insecure of where they are and want you to feel just as bad as they do or argue back against their point. Then they win for they got what they wanted from you.
    I guess I gave up arguing for that reason. You may disagree with me, but that is your choice, I choose God as my savior and I see no reason to argue my position. This is my truth.
    For the people who want to share their misery and argue what is right or wrong with you and others – I suggest seeing a doctor or counselor for some help. Otherwise you are free to keep your choice to yourself and leave us who don’t agree with you alone.

    The above response have proved beneficial for me, it may work for you also my friend.

    Walk daily with God at your side!

    Ed

  5. No, I don’t think it’s remarkable that moderate atheists disagree with their more aggressive, evangelical version. I think they bring up some important considerations about the differences though. When people hate another and are hostile, they become extremist and potentially dangerous, in my opinion, and in the opinion of others. These are the people that blow up abortion doctors; atheists are more than capable of the same; their history of communist atheism proves this is so.

    I don’t prefer my unbelievers quiet at all; I prefer people honor the constitution, which allows for freedom of religion and the free expression thereof, NOT freedom FROM religion. I prefer the moderate to the radical. Radicals can be dangerous, so no, I will not “knock it off.” Thanks for your comment and for sharing, even though we disagree.

  6. Beautifully said, Ed. I try not to argue senselessly, but will most definitely speak my mind, offer my opinion, and correct any potential discrepencies or erroneous claims when I stumble across them.

  7. “If America was truly a secular nation…”
    Oh heaven forbid; that’s a frightening thought. When I have a look at what’s occurring within the public school system and then look at the incessant attempts to get rid of everything and anything that has to do with God, I know what “secular” means to the atheist. It really is akin to anti-theism, anti-religion. No thank you.

    Certainly, a fascist theocracy would be no better. How about just a happy medium where everybody gets to believe as they freely desire to believe and express that as they wish as well. Freedom of expression hurts no one.

    I see the militant atheists attempting to shut down freedom of religious expression and attempting to ridicule religion and religious out of existence. This is the difference between them and the moderate atheists.

    As for religion being the bad guy in the past, we can say the same about atheism, can we not?

  8. There is nothing inherently safe about a moderate position, and the bottom line is that the new atheists you pretend to be so dangerous have done nothing but express their views, Yet you haul out the specter of violence. That’s pretty shameless, but by all means carry on. Integrity is too much to ask..

  9. I agree that to my knowledge militant atheists and new atheists haven’t done anything violent YET. They are political soldiers, however, and warring politically to do away with religion to the best of their abilities; they want religion out of the public square. In my opinion, if you give them an inch, they will take a mile. We must in turn, as Christians, war against their efforts politically ourselves. If we want to maintain and keep our religious freedom and rights under the US Constitution, we have to be politically active and aware in this regard. The militant atheist has not yet been violent, but communist atheists probably didn’t start out violent either; they became such though, didn’t they?

  10. Why would a country where science is taught in the classroom and religion is practiced in the churches be such a scary place? A place in which taxpayer dollars are not spent promoting any religion and that everybody has a right to believe o not believe .
    Atheism is not the bad guy, just a minority that is looking for equal rights under the law.
    Express what you will, but don’t use taxpayer money to do it and of course do not use publicly funded places for that purpose.

  11. The reason I see it as scary place is because militant atheists are not content to simply get religion out of the public schools and keep it in the churches. They want to rid the world of religion. They are politicizing their cause and attempting to alter religious rights under the Constitution. For example, I believe they would like to make it a crime for children to be taught their parent’s faith. I’ve read militant atheists who write that it is indoctrination and child abuse to teach one’s child Christian beliefs and principles. Yes, allowing these individuals to be successful politically would create a very scary place.

    You sound very reasonable and moderate, and not what I would refer to as a militant, but then I haven’t been to your blog, but I’ll get there, have no fear 😉 I really do appreciate you participating in this discussion here on mine.

  12. efchristi could not have said it better “you are free to keep your choice to yourself and leave us who don’t agree with you alone”. Worthy of a militant atheist.

    I do take exception to the thought that all atheists are sharing their misery and argue what is right and wrong and that we should see a doctor or counselor. I believe that many of us are very happy indeed, and have productive lives. By openly discussing ideas, we can broaden our horizons and come to better conclusions. I must add that belief in an imaginary friend would be a very good cause to look for profesional help. I see a doctor everyday (in the mirror) so I guess that I am covered on that.

  13. Thank you for your open expression of ideas.

  14. “I see the militant atheists attempting to shut down freedom of religious expression and attempting to ridicule religion and religious out of existence.” No, what the “‘in your face’ atheist soldiers” are doing, like the FFRF, is making sure that America is secular, because it was meant to be such a country, by not letting tax money go to religious icons and monuments or having prayer in publicly funded schools.
    Are your beliefs so fragile that people mocking them is really such a bad thing? Can they not stand up to ridicule? Then why do you believe in such ridiculous things?
    “They are insistent that you recognize God as ‘the invisible man’ or the ‘flying spagetti monster’ and turn from your faith.” That’s just xxxxxx stupid. One, we don’t want you to call your deity an invisible man. That’s just a nickname we give your god(s). Two, the FSM is an analogy for your deity, not something we are trying to force on you.
    “Despite the thoroughly bloody history of atheism, (Communist atheism, state atheism), atheists insist that their hands are spotless” Hitler was a Christian. Stalin was an atheist. So what? Did their lack of belief in Leprechauns or Zeus make them kill millions of people? No, they were just terrible people. In fact, A-Zeus-ism is responsible for EVERY horrible thing that has ever happened in human history. Hitler though used Christian doctrine to justify his genocide against Jews and others; on the belt of Nazi soldiers it said “Gott Mit Uns,” meaning God is With Us. The real problem is dogma. The Nazis were dogmatic. The Russians were dogmatic. The lack of belief in something did not drive them to kill millions of people, it was dogma. That is the problem so-called “militant atheists” have with Christianity and religion in general. It is dogma. It’s dangerous dogma that has done so many horrible things to the human race.
    “I know what ‘secular’ means to the atheist. It really is akin to anti-theism, anti-religion. No thank you.” Please look up the definition of “secular.” You are delusional, or completely xxxxxx ignorant, for thinking that secularism is about destroying or getting rid of religion. It’s about making the government show no preference to any religion. Not about destroying religion. It’s about not showing favouritism to any religion.

    I think that’s all I have time for. Too much ignorance kills my brain cells (and my appetite).

    (Edited by the Warrioress for profanity)

  15. No, America was not meant to be “secular.” That’s simply an opinion you hold, that militant atheists have pounded in every since twisting Thomas Jefferson’s letters to the Danbury Baptist, blah blah blah, ad infinitum..etc., etc.

    The majority of the founders had faith. They were not in favor of secularism, and most certainly not the kind of secularism militant atheists embrace.

    Mocking other people’s beliefs is rude. It screams of intolerance, bigotry, ignorance, and insecurity. People who have faith in their beliefs, who are secure in said beliefs do not need to insult others for said beliefs; they are not threatened by them.

    Militant atheists are obviously extremely threatened by Christianity and they should be! On some level, I believe that they know the bible is truth and they have an inkling of what is waiting them at the end of this worldly drama. At any rate, their obvious repugnance and lack of respect for the rights of others and the free expression thereof shows their intent.

    Atheists and especially militant atheists are some of the most dogmatic individuals I’ve ever read in my life! This is hilarious that you would actually consider yourself not to be dogmatic. And your views are not? Have you read some of your own posts of late?

    We are discussing militant atheists on this particular post. The militant atheist’s version of secularism is about wiping religion off the map, and you know it. Please don’t try and play dumb.

  16. Whether the US was intended to be a secular nation is not at all important. What matters is whether it should be and whether it developed into one. Since Lemon v. Kurtzman, law has been secular, that is, it cannot prefer any one religion over another and laws must have some non-religious reasoning behind them. This defined the US as a secular nation and it is by no means ever going to be overturned. The US is a secular nation through the natural evolution of the laws.

    Additionally, the question that is paramount is whether any country should be secular. That’s a long and deep philosophical question that I don’t expect to resolve in a comment. However, I present a simple thought experiment. if you were transferred over into an Islamic republic with a fully functioning democratic system, wouldn’t you like to keep those beliefs out of the schools so your children could have their beliefs? Wouldn’t you want religion to reside in the churches and school to be a place to learn math, science, and art? This is the viewpoint of many of the “militant atheists”. The idea of keeping preference or presence of any religion out of things like schools so that children of all faiths and beliefs are treated equally and feel that they belong, that way they can excel on their own merits and not feel marginalized. And that equal footing among people is the basis of egalitarianism, which is the foundation of our constitution and ethics and law, all people are equal. And it also forms the basis of a meritocracy, where people are given the same starting point in life and excel based upon their own capabilities. You may still believe what ever you believe, no one is telling you that those beliefs are wrong in the public sphere, they can’t because everyone must be treated equally, it’s just that everyone is presented with the same slate. One which is religion neutral, it’s neither true nor false, that is for the individuals to decide on their own, not for the state to be involved with.

    And mind you, it’s not just atheists that push back on things like “christmas” and Christianity in schools. Being accepted into the Jewish community, I know how much frustration there is that Christianity dominates all the spheres of public discourse and schools. So really, it’s not just atheists that feel this way towards the presence of religion, many in minority religions feel this way. It’s just that atheists are standing up and fighting. If you ever travel to another country where you find yourself in a minority opinion or belief or group, you’ll suddenly recognize what it feels like to have people take their belief for granted, declare it to be the law of the land through a majority, and leave you in the dust.

    I belong to several minority groups through no choice of my own. And I can tell you, the view from down here is not as rosy as for you up on your high horse. It’s slushing through discrimination, hate, misinformation, and general intolerance. So the next time you complain about not having “in god we trust” or some other nonsense that doesn’t hurt you and accommodates everyone from every background equally, think about all of us on the bottom where real discrimination exists in the form of jobs and harassment and beliefs that my kind are worthless. Meet us all half way, ignore the militant atheists and put your energy into something meaningful.

  17. “America was not meant to be ‘secular.’ That’s simply an opinion you hold, that militant atheists have pounded in every since twisting Thomas Jefferson’s letters to the Danbury Baptist…” You obviously don’t know your history.
    Articles of Tripoli, 1797, “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Signed by President John Adams and unanimously ratified by the US Senate.
    James Madison, on the disestablishment of religion in the US Constitution fifty years later, “…Government has suffered by the exemption of Religion from its cognizance.”
    This next one was authored by Thomas Jefferson and championed by James Madison, “…no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”
    As well, Article Six of the Constitution, “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.” The states didn’t seem to get the memo, and in several states, one cannot hold public office without claiming belief in a god, including Texas the very state I reside in. This would exclude more than atheists, but also Buddhists and other Eastern religions, who do not worship or believe in gods, but ancestors or emperors or something else.
    The founders may not have been in favour of your strawman “militant atheist,” but I’m sure they would similarly frown upon capitalism and theocracy. They created the First Amendment to avoid a theocracy, so they were in favour of secularism, and any favouritism shown towards any religion, including Christianity.
    “Mocking other people’s beliefs is rude. It screams of intolerance, bigotry, ignorance, and insecurity.” Then I better never find a joke about Islam, atheism, liberalism, socialism, or any other ideology on your blog. If this is true, then what are comedians? Their job is to poke fun at anything they want. Your beliefs are not exempt simply because you want them to be.
    “On some level, I believe that they know the bible is truth and they have an inkling of what is waiting them at the end of this worldly drama.” That sounds like mockery of atheism right there. Are you intolerant, bigoted, ignorant, and insecure? I can say the same to you. On some level, you know the Bible is false and that there is no god. You just won’t admit it, because you’re afraid of dying, because on some level, you know there is no Heaven or Hell, but you can’t imagine a world without you in it.
    “Militant atheists are obviously extremely threatened by Christianity and they should be!” Is that a threat? Yes, we are threatened by Christianity, because it is dangerous. It preaches hatred and murder of other people. Its followers push pseudoscience into the classrooms to win a culture war, because they know their claims can’t face up to peer-review by actual scientists, so they instead try to brainwash children into believing in their nonsense.
    “…their obvious repugnance and lack of respect for the rights of others and the free expression thereof shows their intent.” One, no one deserves respect until it is earned. Christianity has not earned its respect. It has earned the privilege of being ridiculed and despised for being evil. Two, no one is trying to take away your right to expression. However, your rights end where another person’s begins. This is why I am against teaching children lies about reality. This is why I am against parents making life or death medical decisions for kids based on their religion. That is why I am against doctors being able to refuse to treat patients because the procedure conflicts with their religion. That is not dogma, that is compassion and concern for the well-being of others.
    “The militant atheist’s version of secularism is about wiping religion off the map, and you know it. Please don’t try and play dumb.” You do not understand secularism or atheism, so do not even try to explain what it means or what other people think it means. It does not mean wiping religion off the map. Where you got that is anyone’s guess. You probably pulled it out of your ass along with the majority of your other claims about history and contemporary American culture and politics.

  18. Allow me to differ.

    Founding father and second president of the United States of America, John Adams signed, and Congress unanimously ratified the Treaty of Tripoli.

    I transcribe article 11:

    Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

    I agree that fundamentalism is bad, no matter if it is theistic o atheistic.

    My ideas and beliefs though, are up for grabs. Ideas were made to be confronted. If somebody disagrees with my ideas, so be it. As an adult, I have no trouble standing up for myself in the face of mockery, and enjoy a good argument every now and then. I will try to defend my ideas to the best of my abilities. If I am not willing to stand up for my ideas, maybe my ideas are not worth having.

    I harbor no ill will towards most religious people, and have many friends that are very religious. I do not want to take away your religious rights, as I have no desire to be stripped of my right to be free of religion. I just demand equal rights under the law.

  19. I have nothing against sharing a view, I do have a problem when you degrade someone else while sharing that view.
    Not every person is a Christian and not every person in an Atheist. It is the choice we have and I expect each person to respect the choices of the other.
    It is the degrading of these choices that create unnecessary argument and stress.
    What you see as imaginary, I see as real and I am not telling you that your view is wrong.
    You walk your daily path with whomever you choose, I walk mine with God at my side.

    Ed

  20. I am sorry if you feel that I was trying to degrade you. I was trying to underscore the fact that even if we have differences, we can have quite a few coincidences.
    As I have said before, I feel that every person should be free to believe o not believe. If you do not agree with me you are well within your rights to tell me so. I in no way will be offended.
    Have a nice walk.

  21. Barking Atheist,

    You said:

    “The founders may not have been in favour of your strawman “militant atheist,” but I’m sure they would similarly frown upon capitalism and theocracy. They created the First Amendment to avoid a theocracy, so they were in favour of secularism, and any favouritism shown towards any religion, including Christianity.”

    I’m not in favor of a theocracy, and no, I don’t agree that what you’ve demonstrated about the founders (the quotes by them) tells us that they were in favor of what militant atheists consider to be secularism. I do agree that all religions and beliefs should be open to the free expression thereof — that is currently happening with the atheist signs on buses, next to the manger scene, ten commandments or whatever. Militant atheists are not content with having freedom of expression, though, are they? They want to remove all godly freedom of expression in the public square instead of sharing that public square with all. This is what I’m opposed to. Secularism does not mean that you will never be exposed to religious expression. It means that you won’t be forced to participate in it, but it doesn’t mean you will be kept away from it and that it will never take place in your presence in the public square; that was most definitely NOT the intent of the founders.

    You said:

    “Then I better never find a joke about Islam, atheism, liberalism, socialism, or any other ideology on your blog. If this is true, then what are comedians? Their job is to poke fun at anything they want. Your beliefs are not exempt simply because you want them to be.”

    I don’t think I post too many jokes about other people’s beliefs. If there are any, I think they are rare and infrequent. I am more than willing to respect every human being’s right to freedom of religious belief or no belief at all. As for commedians, yes, it’s a job and somebody’s got to do it; that is quite different from castigating and denigrating an entire group of people for their personal take on things. Richard Dawkins and his ilk insisted that those who follow his lead mock and ridicule religion out of existence; he encouraged mocking the religious as well. This is “militant” and wrong, in my opinion. If this were being done to atheists, I would stand up against it. Tolerance and respect for one another is the better way.

    You said:

    “That sounds like mockery of atheism right there. Are you intolerant, bigoted, ignorant, and insecure? I can say the same to you. On some level, you know the Bible is false and that there is no god. You just won’t admit it, because you’re afraid of dying, because on some level, you know there is no Heaven or Hell, but you can’t imagine a world without you in it.”

    I was just thinking out loud, essentially; I didn’t mean this is a mocking way at all. We all have our own speculations and I guess from our points of view, that is exactly what they are.. just speculation. No problem. Speculating about one another is honest and honorable. We’re discussing it. I think discussion is good.

    You said:

    “Is that a threat? Yes, we are threatened by Christianity, because it is dangerous. It preaches hatred and murder of other people. Its followers push pseudoscience into the classrooms to win a culture war, because they know their claims can’t face up to peer-review by actual scientists, so they instead try to brainwash children into believing in their nonsense.”

    No threat whatsoever. And I understand your opinion and perspective, that you think Christianity is dangerous, just as we think militant atheism is the same. Creationism is theory, just as science pontificates on the same. You want to shove that down our children’s throats freely, but you don’t think our take deserves equal time? Double standard, wouldn’t you say? That “nonsense” is our belief system. If we have enough respect and allow you to expose our innocent kids to your “nonsense,” I think we deserve equal time.

    You said:

    “One, no one deserves respect until it is earned. Christianity has not earned its respect. It has earned the privilege of being ridiculed and despised for being evil.”

    No more than atheism has. Let’s not forget your brethren in history, the communist atheists and their atheist state. Atheism has also earned the privilege of being ridiculed and despised as evil. Ridiculing and despising something really gets us nowhere to understanding one another better and getting along though, does it? It’s childish and immature, frankly.

    You said:

    “Two, no one is trying to take away your right to expression. However, your rights end where another person’s begins. This is why I am against teaching children lies about reality. This is why I am against parents making life or death medical decisions for kids based on their religion. That is why I am against doctors being able to refuse to treat patients because the procedure conflicts with their religion. That is not dogma, that is compassion and concern for the well-being of others.”

    Your perspective colors everything in your world, but what you don’t see is that YOUR rights also end where another person’s begins. You have no right to dictate to parents what they teach their children. You can’t dictate to people how to raise their kids. Your “compassion and concern for the well being of others is colored by your own dogma. It’s not for everyone. It’s fine for you but not the rest of us. Recognize this.

    You said:

    “You do not understand secularism or atheism, so do not even try to explain what it means or what other people think it means.”

    Yes, I do. You simply don’t like what I understand or approve of it. It’s my point of view. It’s as right for me as yours is for you. You don’t have to like it, nor do I have to like yours, but I do have to respect your right to it and visa versa.

    You said:

    “It does not mean wiping religion off the map. Where you got that is anyone’s guess. You probably pulled it out of your ass along with the majority of your other claims about history and contemporary American culture and politics.”

    Richard Dawkins, Chris Hitchens and the rest of the radical new atheists pulled it out of their arses and put it into their books and articles, unfortunately. In their bigotry, ignorance, and condescending manner, they believe that they actually have the right to attempt to influence and destroy people’s beliefs through scientific mumbo jumbo, ridicule, and disrespect. Because of this, these militant atheist men have alienated even their own moderates. They have behaved like a horse’s butt and as a result have put an entire group of people, (believers), who are clearly in the majority, on the defensive. And yes, this was stupid; it does not further your or their cause.

  22. Hi James,

    You said:

    “However, I present a simple thought experiment. if you were transferred over into an Islamic republic with a fully functioning democratic system, wouldn’t you like to keep those beliefs out of the schools so your children could have their beliefs? Wouldn’t you want religion to reside in the churches and school to be a place to learn math, science, and art? This is the viewpoint of many of the “militant atheists”.”

    No. I wouldn’t expect to go to another country and influence how they did things in terms of their primary, majority belief system. I would expect that all beliefs could be treated with dignity and respect and given opportunity to be heard, but then I am not threatened by other people’s beliefs having their day in the sun. This is what freedom of expression is. I’m in favor of that and I believe that freedom of expression was also the intent of the founders, not a complete closing off of expression of anything that even smacks of religious belief. Militant atheists and even some moderates have erred on the side of attempting to completely do away with all freedom of religious expression in the public square; this was not the intent of the founders and is a terrible idea; it’s a RADICAL IDEA.

    You said:

    “I belong to several minority groups through no choice of my own. And I can tell you, the view from down here is not as rosy as for you up on your high horse. It’s slushing through discrimination, hate, misinformation, and general intolerance. So the next time you complain about not having “in god we trust” or some other nonsense that doesn’t hurt you and accommodates everyone from every background equally, think about all of us on the bottom where real discrimination exists in the form of jobs and harassment and beliefs that my kind are worthless. Meet us all half way, ignore the militant atheists and put your energy into something meaningful.”

    You think Christians don’t go through the same kind of discrimination, hate, misinformation, and general intolerance? Where on earth have you been living? And do you surf the internet at all? Read any forums, blogs, or other writings that are political and religious in nature? I’m not even close to being up on my high horse. We’re slushing through these kinds of abusive behaviors on a daily basis in America right now and I suspect it’s going to turn violent before much longer, exactly as it already has in the middle east and other countries.

    I’m more than willing to meet you half way and I do feel that I’m putting my energies into something meaningful. I don’t ignore militant atheists because their fairly recent attempts at evangelism need to be recognized, addressed, and discussed. Christians need to recognize what they are up to and how they are attempting to impact politics and the world.

    Ignorance does not allow freedom of choice for anyone. I enjoy educating people on their choices and the motivations of those who fight against what I believe in. It helps us to be better informed as a group and to learn how to handle our so-called “enemies.” Personally, Christians really don’t see others as enemies because we are to love everyone equally, but those who hate God, the Christian religion, the bible, etc., are certainly enemies of God, clearly — (according to the bible anyway).

    We can love them and we do, but one never forgets that a venomous snake is what it is, unless one is a fool. Please don’t take offense to the “venomous snake” reference. It’s how I’ve pictured the Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and Dennets of the world, based upon their written words thus far.

    There are very specific ways of dealing with those we don’t understand, whose views we don’t care for, whose views we find threatening. I think it’s a good thing to discuss these matters openly and honestly with all.

  23. I don’t see a problem with equal rights under the law, but that doesn’t mean that you get to shut down my right to express my beliefs in the public square; doing that interferes with my right to freedom of religious belief and expression of that belief. You get the same right to expression of your non belief. Why isn’t this enough for you and the militant atheists? Think of the atheist sign joining the manger scene in the public square. Your non belief is on display. So what’s the problem? Everybody should be happy.

  24. Everybody should be free to express ideas, no matter how much they differ from those of others. Many times that is not possible due to space constraints or monetary concerns. Other times it is because the majority insists on imposing its view on the minority.
    If we can guarantee space and funds to all so they can manifest their ideas in public areas, and not limit this manifestation just because it is contrary to the belief of others, we would have no trouble at all.
    I wish everybody shared my point of view, as I believe others would want everybody to share theirs. Alas, this is not really feasible, so all we can do is respect freedom of expression.

    One of your readers did not take kindly to criticism. I must add that freedom of expression does not entail freedom from criticism. Once you write something and it gets published, the idea takes a life of its own and is free game for all. If somebody does not want his ideas discussed and criticized, well maybe a private blog would be the best place to go.

    I agree with your idea, sad to say it may be a bit difficult to achieve. Reason more to keep trying.

    Thank you for sharing.

  25. I remember reading somewhere that in order to have their signs and such displayed, one had to register in advance. Atheists were on top of things and they actually wound up reserving countless areas. Christians forgot or avoided doing the same and thus they lost out of demonstrating their points of view in this manner. The Christians were all upset but they should have been on the ball if they wanted those spaces. (shrug).

    This seems more than fair to me. There isn’t room for everyone to demonstrate their beliefs so first come first serve.

    Of course, some public official somewhere will have to make this simple way of doing things more complicated, don’t you think? lol…

    Thank *you* for sharing too, Six.

  26. I agree with Warrioress, entirely! I do not trust the athiests, their history is repleted with blood, no matter how lillywhite their hands may be. My grandfather’s family in Belarus suffered at their hands, they were massacred. Damn Bolsheviks murderers, I do not like them at all. Only Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and nothing these athiests will ever do will deter me from my love of Jesus! They’ll have to kill me to shut me up. And yes they WILL kill me if they can get away with it, just like the communists Bolsheviks did years ago, all other athiests will do it in a heartbeat right now!

    Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto His Father, but by Him. John 14:6 This proved the bible’s claims, 100% Nothing of the secular will convinces me in any way. The evolutionary theory is DISCREDITED just like the Marxism, communist manifesto, Leninin, socalism, darwinism, athiestic view of the universe is DISCREDITED!

    And King James Bible is the most pure, but already, foul athiests are meddling with the bible, twisting it, deleting words and adding their own twisted interpretations into the bible. They forgot that they will not get away with it, for God promised that His Word will remain forever, while the earth will pass away! And God NEVER breaks HIS promise! EVER!

    Deluded athiests are all dumb! I would not believe a word of these morons! Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Simple as that. Nothing the athiests can contrive will ever get around Jesus’s WORD!

  27. Warrioress: You’d better watch out for all those atheist Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians – I hear their countries are angry, violent and dangerous!!!!

  28. Keith, I get your sarcasm, but what you are not getting (apparently) is that these countries are not made up of majority militant atheism. Certainly they are atheist, but militant? There are many atheists who are well educated and moderate. They are not rude, hateful people. They do not hate with a vile passion. When I say that these militant atheists are akin to the Westboro Baptist Church, I think you know what I mean. These are obsessive, disturbed individuals, in my opinion. They are “ate up with” what they believe in to the point that they have lost all rational perspective. I don’t consider you to be a militant, personally. You are capable of allowing other people to believe as they desire to believe. As far as I know, you are not attempting to rid the world of all religion, are you? Certainly there are polite militants, but I think they are rare. You have not struck me as militant thus far, though you do evangelize like one.

  29. Alex, I appreciate your thoughts but beg of you as a follower of Jesus Christ to begin to look at your resentment of these people and start to pray for them instead of lamblasting them with dislike.

    These are our fellow human beings; they need to find Jesus Christ as we have. Many of them have made up their minds and made their choices and I find this extremely sad. I have yet to meet a militant atheist that was dumb. Most atheists are very intelligent; perhaps this is part of the problem. They are so intelligent that they cannot become as a little child and believe as we do.

  30. Thus far, I have only met one militant atheist online. He was EXTREMELY abusive to me personally in his language, BUT I think he may have been mentally ill, or maybe possessed. It is hard to tell from here. He had this idea that God is some alien who wants to use our bodies as hosts for His plan for abduction. He hated the fact that I wanted to pray for him because he thought he would be abducted by aliens. He has many posts about why Christianity is a myth. He seems angry, scared, and like I said, possibly ill. I couldn’t have a rational conversation with him, but I still do pray for him. Other bloggers who claim atheism are far more civil, even if they do ridicule, but they ridicule everything, not just Christianity. They at least do not flip out when I throw blessings their way, and usually they are open to have an honest and civil conversation. Great post! Thank you, sister…God bless.

  31. […] Militant Atheism (lifeofafemalebiblewarrior.wordpress.com) […]

  32. Ok, you want to go toe to toe on discrimination and whining. You make up 70%+ of the population. Boo freaking hoo. That means that you’re the majority and the “minority discrimination” is likely in your head. It’s the same way that the Germans felt about my ancestors. Those pesky little Jews discriminating and domineering against us. Guess what, not only were the Germans wrong, but they acted upon their pathetic persecution complex. So don’t start thinking that Christianity affords you any sort of persecution. On top of that, I also happen to be Irish and be bipolar, one of the most misunderstood mental illnesses next to OCD and schizophrenia. I have been denied housing and jobs because of the complex of these matters as well as also finding it incredibly hard to date because either girls hold defunct prejudices against Jews or find mental illness “icky”.

    So until you’ve lost your house, lost your job, and found it hard to integrate in any social circumstances while being accepted for who you are, don’t F***KING complain to me about how hard your life is or how discriminated against you are. Your are in the majority, likely white, bored, and clearly have only heard about minorities through the news. Boo hoo about blogs, I’m not talking about mean words, if that’s the worst you have got, I’d suggest you look at yahoo answers and see how many lists the mentally ill top in “extermination lists”. Get a life, stop pitying yourself, and help the disadvantaged instead of feeding yourself this line about how bad you have it. You don’t have it bad, and I almost definitely have it worse, and I don’t whine or start a blog about how hard it is and how I am right. I blog in order to help people through the toughest times of their life and provide a raw and unadulterated view of mental illness instead of the white washing that hollywood and the media portray it as.

    Furthermore, I volunteer my time. I help local organizations, including church organizations, to help people in need. I am pegging down qualifications to become a suicide helpline operator, and I try to help people every day over various outlets to seek professional help to aid their mental illness, suicidal thoughts, and help loved ones through difficult times. Until you face discrimination on the same level I have, still volunteer your time and energy to help others, and not whine about how hard it is, stop being such an overprivileged white woman with nothing else to do. Grow up and help people, for real, it’ll help put some perspective into your life. I mean seriously, you didn’t hear Jesus whine about how people misunderstood him or didn’t like him, he went out and actually helped people. Take a page from his book and stop writing and instead volunteer to help people. Talk about that and help people get involved in their local communities. There are always people in need and I’m 100% positive that message was one that Jesus believed in and preached. So GO, do something useful with your life. Even in the midst of clonazepam withdrawal, I was able to help out in the local arts community and provide a venue for local bands to attract a fan base and reach out and hone their performance skills. I’m sure you’ve never gone through something close to heroin withdrawal, but even in the midst of it I’ve probably done more than you with my life. So go, do something, make your life meaningful and helpful. You’re doing nothing and changing nobody’s mind doing this.

  33. James, your bitchy post doesn’t alleviate what I’ve experienced in my life as a Christian. You don’t know anything about me. You don’t even know if I’m white. I am writing this blog anonymously for a reason. I’m not going to get into a pissing contest about who is the more persecuted, as that is not why I write.

    As for advising me to find something else to do with my time, you haven’t any idea what I do when I’m not writing, do you? You don’t know my life. I’m definitely not here to toot my own horn. My rewards are offered based upon my silence, not my willingness to boast an itinerary of what I do for others.

    Also, regardless if I am in the minority or the majority, Christians are losing their lives in other countries because of their faith. Christians in the US are losing jobs, religious rights, and are emotionally and verbally abused because of their personal beliefs and expression of the same. I’ve already cited proof of these facts in various other posts.

    I’m really sorry you are unable to empathize with any but your own kind; I find this to be quite sad.

  34. History… Blood? Reallllly? You would like to go there huh? Okedoke then. The Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and the Witch hunts are but 3 of many religious ones. Dont be so blind. We can go back and forth with this, it makes no difference to me.

    You are an atheist as well, stop being so delusional.

  35. Defman is not an atheist.

  36. I know this. Perhaps you didnt know I was replying to his/her subtle attempt at a fallacy of genetics. It was an attempt to shift the blame. You cant have a war in the name of atheism, ever. It doesnt make sense, but it can be based around political pressures. You can, however, have a war based in the name of god or gods, like the Crusades.

    By his comment, I know he is not an atheist, please do not tell me the obvious. Dont assume that I cannot read.

  37. Wow…. scary stuff. It’s nice when we come across the friendly, more polite atheists. Some can be quiet intellectual and informative. Some can be just plain jerks. I guess it’s similar to the religious now that I think about it. You have your utter horse’s asses and the sincere.

    Thanks, LH!

  38. I enjoy educating people on their choices and the motivations of those who fight against what I believe in. It helps us to be better informed as a group and to learn how to handle our so-called “enemies.”

    But you get so much, so very much WRONG. Or are you flawless, that you cannot make a mistake, or even a lot of mistakes.

  39. Honestly, KA, where is this going between the two of us? Personally, I think you get so much very wrong. You are completely unable to see how you come off. You don’t see, nor have you commented on, that your own kind believe you are offensive! There is no need to be rude, angry, insulting, reckless, and just generally nasty. Where does this behavior get you? What does it get you? Do you think it makes your “message” more appealing? It does not.

    Wake up, KA. Grow up. This “tactic” the more militant of you are utilizing is STUPID.

  40. 🙂

  41. I don’t see a problem with equal rights under the law,

    ‘Cept fer them durn homersexuals wantin’ to get married!

    but that doesn’t mean that you get to shut down my right to express my beliefs in the public square;

    I say everyone gets a permit, everybody pays the same amount. That way it’s fair.

    doing that interferes with my right to freedom of religious belief and expression of that belief.

    Historically, religious people spiral out of control & abuse what few rights they do have.

    You get the same right to expression of your non belief.

    Gimmee a break: we have to actually pay MONEY for this stuff – & people STILL flip out over it.

    Why isn’t this enough for you and the militant atheists?

    Yeah, your idea of ‘militant’ is laughable.

    Think of the atheist sign joining the manger scene in the public square. Your non belief is on display. So what’s the problem? Everybody should be happy.

    The whole problem is that it’s TAXPAYER MONEY: Not all taxpayers are religious – insisting that your religion be celebrated while others are excluded is unfair. Trying to celebrate them all leads to headaches confusion & mixed up administrative costs.
    In Charlie’s War, some guy is complaining to Charlie that people want to move the manger. Charlie says, “Listen, there’s a lawn on the front of the church a block away. Why not just move it there, & everyone’s happy?”
    Indeed, why not? Nobody’s being persecuted in this country – just move the manger. Separation of church & state & all that.

  42. Honestly, KA, where is this going between the two of us?

    Honestly? I see a bright spirited young person who’s been taught some seriously flawed nonsense.

    Personally, I think you get so much very wrong.

    It’s not personal. I’ll say this again: this isn’t about ‘opinion vs. opinion’. Try subtracting your emotions from all the equations, subtract the supernatural, see what you get.

    You are completely unable to see how you come off.

    I’m responding in kind. Do recall: you dive-bombed an atheist blog to lecture us all on how to behave.

    You don’t see, nor have you commented on, that your own kind believe you are offensive!

    ‘My own kind’? I don’t know those folks: nor do I care. The only thing I share (excepting those ‘ex-atheists’) w/those bozos, is that there is simply no supernatural. It’s not a religion: we all don’t agree regularly. Just ordinary folk.

    There is no need to be rude, angry, insulting, reckless, and just generally nasty

    I’m actually not that angry: all the others (beside rude) are a matter of perception.
    & really? Dive-bombing an atheist blog & telling us we’re rude, intolerant, snotty? Pot.kettle.black.

    Where does this behavior get you? What does it get you? Do you think it makes your “message” more appealing? It does not.

    Oh believe me: I’ve tried the courteous route. It gets nowhere fast.

    Wake up, KA. Grow up. This “tactic” the more militant of you are utilizing is STUPID.

    Yes, because people hate being told the truth. “Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies.”

  43. “Dive-bombing an atheist blog & telling us we’re rude, intolerant, snotty? Pot.kettle.black.”

    KA, no offense, but your blog is rude, intolerant, and snotty; I just told you the truth. I genuinely thought it might give you new perspective if I stopped by and shared my point of view.

  44. We don’t all believe in the extreme that you do in “separation of church and state” to the point that you get to trample on our freedom of religious expression. The founders never intended what you and some others visualize as appropriate.

  45. KA, no offense, but your blog is rude, intolerant, and snotty; I just told you the truth.

    None taken: you are far from the 1st, & far from the last to say so. I am in a quandary: I love my fellow human beings, but I utterly despise religion. It is a barbaric anachronism, written by a bunch of goat herders who couldn’t get ANY of their facts straight.
    No offense, just the truth.

  46. We don’t all believe in the extreme that you do in “separation of church and state” to the point that you get to trample on our freedom of religious expression.

    Hey, express away. Just don’t think that ‘freedom’ is a license to do whatever you please. Freedom is defined by boundaries.

    The founders never intended what you and some others visualize as appropriate.

    Aye caramba! The ‘founders’ this & the ‘founders’ that. You realize a founding father, Thomas Paine, wrote the ‘Age of Reason’, a sweeping condemnation of the bible? Jefferson was a closet deist, Franklin an open one? These guys were mostly drunk all the time, they didn’t get along (Jefferson & Hamilton HATED each other). This pretentious ‘this isn’t what the FF wanted for us’ crap is getting old. Madison was AGAINST tax exemption for churches: but he cut a compromise, & wanted the churches to pay taxes ONLY IF the churches stayed OUT of politics.
    So I’m w/Madison: you wanna stay tax-free? Stay out of the political arena.

  47. I think I agree with you about the tax-free stuff. If one is going to take public monies, they are going to have to jump through some ridiculous hoops in order not to offend the public. This is probably why religious organizations should not take public monies, short of donations. I know lots of the religious won’t agree with me, but there are far too many compromises made because of money and greed, that never should have been.

    Anyway, KA, it seems we finally agree about something, eh? 🙂 Will miracles never cease? 😉

  48. See, this isn’t as hostile. I can deal with what you just wrote. It’s genuine ..authentic, and I don’t have to agree with it to respect it as your opinion, which I believe you’re entitled to. All I’m asking is that you remember that you do love your fellow human beings, including me and “my kind..” 😉 It might help you take that hostile edge off a little.

  49. See, this isn’t as hostile.

    Actually, none of my posts are that hostile. Straight honesty comes off as hostile.

    It’s genuine ..authentic, and I don’t have to agree with it to respect it as your opinion, which I believe you’re entitled to.

    Opinions, as I’ve been saying all along, are inconsequential: one should only objectively state facts.

    All I’m asking is that you remember that you do love your fellow human beings, including me and “my kind..” 😉 It might help you take that hostile edge off a little.

    What you take for temperament, is actually a matter of style.

  50. I think I agree with you about the tax-free stuff.

    So…if the church you attend is tax-exempt, then you’ll stay outta the political arena?
    YAY!

  51. You don’t even know if I’m white.

    So that’s not your picture?

    Christians in the US are losing jobs, religious rights, and are emotionally and verbally abused because of their personal beliefs and expression of the same.

    Trust me, atheists are being mistreated proportionately WORSE than any religious people are. Most states, people constantly bombard each other w/religion. Atheists lose jobs regularly: they have their children taken from them for not being religious.
    I wrote about this back in 2006 – & it pretty well stands today:
    http://biblioblography.blogspot.com/2006/07/its-curmudgeon-time-things-that-really.html
    For the most part, all most of us atheists want is equal treatment, equal rights, for EVERYONE. Centuries of the Christians being in power has put them on what they think is a higher moral ground. It’s an even playing field now, & for the most part, most religious people are bewailing their loss of special privileges. But that’s just how people are, religious or not.
    NO FREE PASSES. Not for you, not for me: not for anyone. Everybody gets equal treatment. @ least in this country.

  52. No, it’s not my picture. Read my gravatar. I’m writing this blog anonymously due to what I’ve experienced in the past. I’m a single mother of a thirteen year old little girl and I don’t want a psycho showing up in our lives because of the strong opinions I share on this blog about my faith and politics. I’ve already had my email hacked and have been stalked by some really scary people, not to mention having been threatened with physical harm just because I’m an outspoken Christian. If it were just me at risk, I would risk it, but when it comes to my child, I have to be a mom first.

    Anyway, do I really need to cite the stats for how many Christians have lost their lives because of their faith? No, it hasn’t happened yet in America, but it’s coming — I have no doubt it’s coming. How many atheists have lost their lives in the world RECENTLY because of their atheism? I’m just curious. I would really like to know.

  53. If my church receives tax exempt status, the owner of the church should not preach politics from the pulpit. Where on earth do you get the concept that I should stay out of the political arena because of what church I attend? That’s an insane idea, imo. At any rate, no, I’m not a member of a church. We attend a few different churches at this time, regularly. I have no idea what status they are tax-wise.

  54. I’ve already had my email hacked and have been stalked by some really scary people, not to mention having been threatened with physical harm just because I’m an outspoken Christian.

    I’m truly sorry to hear that. Any clue as to who they were, exactly? I’m guessing they weren’t militant atheists, at any rate.

    Anyway, do I really need to cite the stats for how many Christians have lost their lives because of their faith?

    You realize that a willingness to die for belief doesn’t legitimize the belief?

    No, it hasn’t happened yet in America,

    My point was that the items I listed in my blog post ARE happening in America – and that they SHOULDN’T happen here.

    How many atheists have lost their lives in the world RECENTLY because of their atheism?

    The whole point being, that superstition is bogus, not worth dying for or over, & that there is no afterlife, so we need to be more careful, less reckless, ’cause there’s nobody watching out for us but ourselves & each other.

  55. I have to admit to not reading all of the posts and gracious responses that you have made, but I think many of the exchanges demonstrate the point. There are some whose tactic is to trot out hackneyed objections no matter what the direction of the conversation. And my experience is that indeed many atheists are embarrassed by such behaviour. I know of at least one person who ‘cam out’ as an atheist simply to show the world that there can be reasonable debate. She pointed out that the danger of extreme and aggressive atheism is that it stimulates extreme and aggressive religious fanatics to fanaticism. Such behaviour leads to conflicts such as Northern Ireland…
    Now I tend to give the benefit of the doubt until such a person demonstrates that they have no interest in rational and reasonable discussion and then simply try to walk away (and pray for them).

  56. What a beautiful statement, MC! You said this so very well…..

  57. I am almost dumbfounded by this.
    The most violent country in the world – The USA -is also one of the most religious. To even suggest that atheism is a threat is ludicrous.
    Such a statement is crass ignorance.

    Look around the world. See which countries are the most stable, the most peaceful, the most happy.
    They all have something in common. Very little religion.
    You make me laugh sometimes, you really do.

  58. Hmm.. I must say, you are amusing, aren’t you? lol.

    Read up on “State Atheism” if you will.

    Here

  59. Your understanding of world politics is somewhat narrowly focused, no doubt blinded a little by your religious views.
    Every country featured on this Wiki page was communist. I did not see a single democracy.
    I have no idea what point you are trying to make. It would be helpful if you would be more explicit.

  60. […] Militant Atheism (lifeofafemalebiblewarrior.wordpress.com) […]


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