Posted by: the warrioress | July 11, 2012

Atheist Evangelism III

Ellie conversing with a praying mantis called ...

Ellie conversing with a praying mantis called Dichard Rawkins. The scene satirizes popular atheist, biological theorist, and author of The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins. (Published 25 Nov 2009.) (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

At Camp Quest, Atheists are intent on indoctrinating their own children at record rates! Richard Dawkins, who helped finance, sponsor, and set up these atheist summer camps for children, claimed he was against the indoctrination of children by the religious, insisting that it was akin to “child abuse!” 

Yet this perspective doesn’t appear to have deterred him or unbelieving parents from proceeding to indoctrinate their children and the children of other unbelievers into doctrines of atheism. 

More Proof  of Atheist Indoctrination of young children:

“Prof Richard Dawkins, the prominent atheist, has helped set up an atheist summer camp where children will be taught rational scepticism and sing John Lennon’s Imagine alongside the more traditional activities of canoeing and swimming.

The evolutionary biologist and author of The God Delusion, who stepped down from his post at Oxford University last year, has subsidised the five-day camp in Somerset.

IndoctrinationCamp-goers will be given lessons in rational scepticism, as well as sessions in moral philosophy and evolutionary biology. There will be more familiar camp activities such as trekking, tug-of-war, canoeing and swimming but children will also be taught to disprove phenomena such as crop circles and telepathy.

The retreat is for children aged eight to 17 and will rival traditional faith-based breaks run by the Scouts and church groups. It will teach that religious belief and doctrines can prevent ethical and moral behaviour. The camp is part of a campaign, backed by Dawkins and Professor AC Grayling, the philosopher and writer, designed to challenge Christian societies, collective worship and religious education.

Prof Dawkins said it was designed to “encourage children to think for themselves, sceptically and rationally”.

The emphasis on critical thinking is epitomised by a test called the Invisible Unicorn Challenge. Children will be told by camp leaders that the area around their tents is inhabited by two unicorns.

The activities of these creatures, of which there will be no physical evidence, will be regularly discussed by organisers, yet the children will be asked to prove that the unicorns do not exist.  Anyone who manages to prove this will win a £10 note – which features an image of Charles Darwin, the father of evolutionary theory – signed by Dawkins, a former professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University.

“The unicorns are not necessarily a metaphor for God, they are to show kids that you can’t prove a negative,” said Samantha Stein, who is leading next month’s camp at the Mill on the Brue outdoor activity centre close to Bruton, Somerset. “We are not trying to bash religion, but it encourages people to believe in a lot of things for which there is no evidence.”

A spokesman for the Church of England questioned Dawkins’ decision to stage a summer camp for atheists. “We would defend the right for anyone to set up an event like this, as long as the young people are happy to attend,” he said. “But in his imitation of the type of youth events that religious groups have been running for years, Dawkins makes atheism look even more like the thing he is rallying against.”

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Responses

  1. you can’t prove a negative,”

    Atheists can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, but they certainly believe this negative that can’t be proven.

    Stay strong. God Bless

  2. I can see why teaching children rational thinking would alarm you.

  3. Ahh, but “rational” is subjective, is it not? It’s the atheist definition of rational that alarms me. It’s the double standard, “do as I say, not as I do” kind of thinking that alarms me. It’s the rampant dishonesty, twisting of the truth, and underhanded scheming that’s almost sociopathic that alarms me. What I’m saying will make much more sense when and if you partake of my next posting…thanks for the comment, Brian.

  4. The best thing we can do as Christians of course is to pray against the success of such works. Many unbelieving children grow up and turn to God. I know, I was one, an atheist for 43 years and now a Christian of 23 years. The power of prayer is greater than that of our attempts to stop the work of satan.

    Shirley Anne x

  5. “It’s the rampant dishonesty, twisting of the truth, and underhanded scheming that’s almost sociopathic that alarms me. ”

    Now you’re just being paranoid. Not surprising for someone who thinks the world is about to end, I guess!

  6. I’m not paranoid. I’ve read the writings of Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and Dennett; I know what the atheist plan/project is. All I’m doing is making the readers out here aware of it. You’re in denial and cannot admit what your atheist brethren have been up to, in their new found freedom to indoctrinate. Own up to the truth and stop bs-ing around.

  7. I’m praying, not to worry… unfortunately, we’re all aware of what God’s plan is, so I’m not sure if praying is going to change anything; still if even one is saved, it’s all been worth it. I’m so glad to hear that you have been a Christian for nearly 23 years. God is good, and yes, I know the power of prayer is great, but perhaps it is even greater than I knew. Thanks, Shirley Anne. God bless you.

  8. I think Christians should be alarmed. We know that generally as education, financial security and social security rise, religiosity declines.

    Christians print hundreds of books showing why other religions are wrong. They are meant to help readers see through the teachings of other faiths other than their own — they use the Bible as the standard of knowledge to make that claim.

    Atheists do the same — and we can call that “indoctrination”. They just use empirical data and reasoning as their standard of knowledge.

  9. Hey great post, thanks for sharing. On another note, I would love to put blog button of your site to share with my readers so they can check out your great blog. Do you have one?

  10. You are a blessing

  11. […] Atheist Evangelism III (lifeofafemalebiblewarrior.wordpress.com) […]

  12. My youngest daughter goes to Camp Quest each year, and I’m thrilled with it. They don’t preach against religion, they teach kids tools for working things out on their own. There’s no indoctrination; they teach thinking. If that’s a threat to religion, then what does that say about the level of truth contained in religion?

    My daughter has had an exposure to lots of different religions, and lots of lessons in critical thinking. She’s free to draw her own conclusions, no indoctrination necessary.

  13. Hi Ubi,

    I appreciate your comment and thank you. As far as your observation goes, regarding Camp Quest, I’m sure it’s the same for an atheist parent as it is for a Christian parent. Where ever we determine to send our kid, we’re going to be all right with the itinerary of events or why would we have the child attending. Atheists will not see indoctrination in their choice, just as Christians don’t see indoctrination in theirs. Unfortunately, there are unbiased observers who see indoctrination in both; they are not invested in one side or the other.

    Based upon a standard definition of what indoctrination is, I think it’s quite clear that atheists are doing the exact same thing that Christians are, in regard to pushing their points of view down other people’s throats, including the throats of children.

  14. So are you, Kayode!!

  15. Thanks, Diana! A button? Er.. I don’t have anything like that yet. Hmm. I’ll have to look into getting one. Do you make them?

  16. Thanx Ubi — great observation.

    And “TW”, I basically agree with you that both sides indoctrinate. I think having a debate over who indoctrinates is a big waste of time.

    But pointing out some of the difference between the doctrines taught (in-doctrinate) may be helpful:

    Many Christians (no liberals) teach their children that other non-Christian children are going to hell. Some even teach their children not to become friends with non-Christians. They certainly teach adolescents that ‘yoking’ with non-believers is not God’s plan for them.

    I get all this, of course, but Atheist don’t feel Christian’s lives are worthy of damnation and many don’t mind if they marry Christians as long as they are happy.

    This sort of divisive doctrine put into children, just as Muslims do, to me seems a very bad thing for the world. Call it what you will.

    BTW — my atheist children have directly experienced this bigotry from some Christians. Again, not all Christians do this.

  17. Yes, atheists do the very same! Thank you for finally agreeing with me, Sabio. Maybe you can convince Ark, Keith, and the rest that they have become that which they detest…

  18. I appreciate your complete and utter honesty, Sabio! You are the only atheist thus far who will admit that atheists are indoctrinating people just as Christians are. Your ability to face truth is to be commended. I’m so sorry that your children have experienced bigotry and mistreatment from some Christians. Some Christians do not read their bibles or understand them. We are to be Christ-like with all, including our enemies. Not that atheists are our enemies at all, but some people see them as if they are. In some respects, they are spiritual enemies of God, but I think this is when they have become reprobate in their thinking and have completely sold themselves out to Satan. I’m not sure that we can judge this state, however, and feel that we should probably leave this up to God.

    We should love everyone as Christ did, period. And while we stand firm in beliefs, we must always show this love even to those with whom we disagree. We need to respect others who differ from us and be polite and courteous, even though we do not agree with them and will say so.

  19. I never disagreed. But they may not have become what they detest — I just think they were not specific enough in describing what they did not like. They inaccurately overgeneralized, I think. But I don’t think Christians and Atheists do the exact same thing for everything, obviously. — As I mentioned in other comments — but can’t be seen because of the hierarchy of comments! 🙂

  20. Thanx Warrioress.
    But you know, the tension in what you wrote is obvious. You even make it clear when you say:

    I’m not sure that we can judge this state,

    Many Christians say, “I can’t judge” but they whisper behind closed walls about “reprobate Atheists” being “the enemies of God”. No wonder the children only walk away with the indoctrination that Christians are filthy, dangerous and dispisable and should be shunned just as you shun Satan. Atheists are as good as being Satan’s slaves. The hate talk for atheists is obvious on the Internet and in churches. All this while talking about “loving everyone as Christ did” — really?

    You see it is an obvious tension.

    You said:

    reprobate in their thinking and have completely sold themselves out to Satan.

    This talk for nonbeliever is nothing like I hear the Jesus in the stories of the four gospel writers saying. This is hatred.

    You are obviously divided. But I think you were very intentionally honest in sharing your divided mind — I deeply appreciate it.

    All our minds are divided — of that I am absolutely sure. We are all a complex mix.

  21. I’m very honest, Sabio..as honest as I possibly can be the vast majority of the time. There may be tension present within the exchanges with atheists, but it’s because of the spiritual/earthly battle that is occurring. It’s easy to see them as opposition to what I see as my cause. It’s easy to see them as “the other side..” When it gets right down to it, though, I care about them each and every one, very much. It’s pretty much why I bother to do these posts and exchange information and pov with them; I am still in hopes that something within these exchanges will stir their hearts so that they reconsider their individual decisions and change their minds about rejecting Christ. Either way, regardless, it’s all up to them and I care no matter they decide.

    I believe that Jesus Christ loved as much as anyone can love, but He was still able to be exceedingly firm and there was tension when He called a disciple down and insulted their pride and them at the same time when they were in error. He was capable of being loving but firm. There is no hatred for the atheist on my part, but I will admit to moments of dislike when I’ve had to deal with atheists who are rude, militant, and angry and taking it out on me. I have definitely felt strong dislike for some who have taken debate and difference of opinion and made it personal.

  22. @ Sabio

    lol… okay, seriously, I’m going to attempt this without the comment hierarchy and see how it goes. I hope I prefer it. But I’m speaking to the hypocrisy in these posts primarily, Sabio. And the hypocrisy is there on the atheist part because they don’t see that they are acting just like Christians do when they go all evangelical and attempt to persuade others into atheism through the exact same ways and methods that Christians have been utilizing for years; I don’t think a Christian would ever stoop so low as to engage in something like the blasphemy challenge however; that was just disgusting.

    Sabio, one thing to mention on this hierarchy thing. Without the comment hierarchy, we’re unable to see who responded to whom without reading through all the various comments and by then, I’ve forgotten who said what. I see this as a problem that was resolved by the hierarchy, but I’m giving this a shot and see how I like it.

  23. Hey Warrioress,

    I will respond to two of your topics.

    (1) How to think about Atheists

    I am still in hopes that something within these exchanges will stir their hearts so that they reconsider their individual decisions and change their minds about rejecting Christ. Either way, regardless, it’s all up to them and I care no matter they decide.

    Being an ex-Christian, I get your goal. And let me be honest about my goal in such dialogues: To help Christians be better Christians — and different Christians: ones who are inclusivists vs exclusivists, ones who don’t view their scripture so narrowly as to limit their insight into morality and politics, and to help keep our society a place where it is safe and still enjoyable if you don’t share the views of your neighbor. Part of that, is the right to speak freely — that is a good segue to my next point ….

    (2) Why Confessing our Beliefs should not Offend
    When an ex-Muslim confesses that they don’t believe Mohammed is the prophet of god, many Muslims believe such a confession should be met with death. De-conversion is looked down on by many Muslims.

    I have had Christians ‘friends’ advise me to just tell my kids to stop talking about their beliefs because they offend their little Christian classmates. But my kids bring it up only when the lunch table conversation gets going on God. Even the lunch room monitor has expressed horror that our children don’t believe — that was brought to the principal by another parent.

    Christians who dominate a country have told their Atheists to hush for a long time. Speaking out and saying we don’t believe in Mohammed is a prophet, a Holy Spirit, or Obama is a savior should not bring anyone’s wrath. We should be so use to a free country, that this is totally tolerated. It shouldn’t even be offensive when someone tells you what they believe.

    You may be sad at someone else’s beliefs, I get that.

  24. Sabio, my kids have encountered the same sort of thing. When they dare to say aloud that they don’t share the prevailing belief system, they are harassed and bullied. Not for attacking the belief systems of others, because they don’t do that, but simply for daring to say that they disagree. Why should it be OK for a kid to proclaim that they are a christian and proud of it, but not OK for a kid to that they aren’t religious, and are equally proud?

    But I still disagree about Camp Quest being any kind of “indoctrination”. They teach things like “you don’t have to believe everything you are told” and “don’t be afraid to ask questions” and “you are allowed to work it out for yourself”. They even avoid calling kids “atheist children”, and instead use phrases like “children of atheist parents” because it’s not fair for adults to impose labels on kids. If that’s “indoctrination” then what would a lack of indoctrination look like?

  25. If Christians (and particularly reborns) did not proselytize and uphold and promote a doctrine that states that, any human being that does not acknowledge the character of Jesus as Messiah,God and the ‘truth’ will be damned to eternal hell then atheists (in the main) wouldn’t give a hoot.
    Atheists feel the same(more or less) about Islam. There are bizillions of good Muslims but ask any to forgo the doctrine of Jihad and they will likely recoil in metaphoric horror that one would be tampering with the literal word of god.

    So, Warrioress, as a Christian, repudiate the dogma of hell for non-Christians and we can at least start to find a middle ground.
    How about it?

  26. @ ubi dubium,

    I just looked up your handle and it comes, I’d imagine from the annonymous Latin scholastic proverb: “ubi dubium ibi libertas”: Where there is doubt, there is freedom.

    I think that freedom to doubt is drastically important and I think there are many Christians who agree. However, some use dubious means to squash doubt, while some don’t.

    Yeah, kids can wear crosses to school but if my kid wore a t-shirt saying “I’m happily an Atheist”, it would cause a big stir. BTW — I won’t let my child do that. He can take that foolish step when he is an adult and knows the consequences and bears responsibility for them.

    I use to tell my kids to live and let live: to never offend someone else’s religion. Then he came home and was crying silently in his room. When I asked why, he told me of ridicule at school. So I told him, you don’t have to respect those sort of Christians and offered to help him think how to talk with them. But I also told them that they were just kids and probably just mimicing their parents. He understood.

    Concerning Camp Quest being “indoctrination”. Camp Quest teaches (doctrine) a Naturalistic methodology, no? They teach it to them strongly at the exclusion of using “faith” and “prayer” to seek knowledge from a Holy Ghost. So they are indoctrinated. I think “indoctrination” is natural. The question should be, “What sort of indoctrination do we wish to criticize.”

    Well, there is (1) Method and (2) Content. I think rather than trying to label the other person with the nasty word “indoctrinator!”, instead we should focus on the specific methods or the specific content that we find deplorable and how we ourselves escape similar charges.

  27. “Yes, atheists do the very same! Thank you for finally agreeing with me, Sabio. Maybe you can convince Ark, Keith, and the rest that they have become that which they detest…”

    The difference is that atheists will encourage children to think for themselves. Christian parents will approach the subject of evolution for example from a standpoint that is is (largely) false doctrine and the bible is inerrant.
    This is plainly not so.
    This is indoctrination. It is false doctrine.It is religious dogma.
    The earth is NOT 10,000 years old as Y.E. Creationist claim.
    Dinosaurs did not go in the Ark and were not vegetarian prior to the fall. Teaching doctrine like this is heinous.
    Teaching children that if they do not believe Jesus is god they will go to hell is heinous. It is indoctrination.
    Atheists do not teach children such clap trap. And yes, teaching a child in this manner is tantamount to child abuse and if it were possible those that teach it should be prosecuted.
    The late Ron Wyatt and his mentally unstable cohorts did not find Chariot Wheels at the bottom of the Red(sic) Sea. Neither did they discover, Noah’s Ark (not me).
    Taking a child on an ‘educational tour’ of the Creationist Museum in Kentucky saying that it a true representation of how things were in the ‘Good Old Days’ is nothing but a blatant lie.

    Fortunately, thank the gods, the average child is not as stupid as the adult that would inculcate it with this blasphemy- although many go through a fair amount of torment before the light is switched on.
    Shame on any parent that would mentally abuse a child in this fashion.

    T-Rex was a vegetarian,indeed!
    “Sharp pointy teeth? What sharp pointy teeth? Oooh, is that a veggie burger I see?”

  28. I’ve also had to tell my kids to lay low about what they think. Kids at their school wear crosses, hijabs, any religious symbol seems to be acceptable. But I would not feel comfortable having my kid wear an Atheist symbol to school, it would make them an immediate target, more than they already are. It’s good that the Secular Student Alliance is growing, especially at the high school level, more and more support for non-religious kids is becoming available.

    I’ve pulled some information from the Camp Quest website: http://www.campquest.org/mission

    “Our Mission
    Camp Quest provides an educational adventure shaped by fun, friends and freethought, featuring science, natural wonder and humanist values.
    Values we teach: integrity, empathy, creativity, critical thinking, and community.

    Our Vision
    Camp Quest envisions a world in which children grow up exploring, thinking for themselves, connecting with their communities, and acting to make the most of life for themselves and others.”

    Since this is a kids camp, saying “Naturalistic methodology” is using unnecessarily big formal words. Do they teach that testing out ideas to see what works is the best way to find out about the real world? Sure they do. We’ve never found a better way to find out how the world works. Testing ideas against reality is what let us develop our modern world, including the computer that you are reading this on.

    The original post paints this camp as very scary, and dedicated to turning kids into atheists. It’s actually dedicated to helping kids learn to be good thinkers. Their eventual religious views are up to the kids.

  29. Hi Arkenaten:

    You said,

    Christian parents will approach the subject of evolution for example from a standpoint that is is (largely) false doctrine and the bible is inerrant.

    First, not all Christian parents are anti-evolution.
    Second, I teach my children that Evolution is true and that creationism is laughable. I don’t even bother directing them to creationist flimbsy arguments. So I am indoctrinating them.

    You may disagree with the doctrines between Creationists and Evolutionists, but they are both indoctrinating.

    And I’d wager both parents would encourage their kids to doubt. But you are right that many Christians use dubious methods to teach children that doubt is wrong.

    So it is not the content taught — you can’t just say because you disagree with content that one side is indoctrinating and one side isn’t.

    So I’d stick to what teachings you deplore and why and stop calling it “indoctrination”.

  30. @ ubi dubium,
    Oh, I absolutely agree with your last comment — I agree with everything.
    I think it is indoctrinating in naturalistic methodology (even if it is a lofty expression) — and agreeing with you, I think that is a wonderful thing. I’ve even thought about sending my kids there. Did yours like it a lot? Did they want to go back?

  31. @sabio
    My youngest went last year. She is very shy and reluctant to interact with large groups of people, so I was worried she would not like it. She had a blast and can’t wait to go back! (My oldest was too old to be a camper by the time we had a camp open locally.)

  32. @Sabio

    Here here!! Well said, Sabio.

  33. @Ubi

    Of course the Camp Quest website is going to regale us all with wonderful tales of how unbiased the camp is and how it promotes this “critical thinking..” (eye roll) Please give me a break. I’ve already presented sources that declare otherwise from new groups and writers who don’t have a dog in this hunt.

  34. @Ark

    What a steaming pile of…You are completely indoctrinated, Ark, toward the atheist cause. You sound exactly like the Four Horsemen, good little atheist soldier that you are. You’re indoctrinated into the atheist cult, all right, and everything you say has already been said before. Thank God Sabio is at least capable of honesty and is not blind in his denial.

  35. @Sabio and the rest of you

    Sabio’s postings are presented in such a way that he at least calls indoctrination what it is without regard to bias. I admit that Christians indoctrinate, but the majority of atheists that have been converted by Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and the rest of the new atheist cult, cannot see the forest for the trees. It’s pathetic, frankly. I have very little respect for people who are deluded to the point that they have been struck blind for their cause. And they accuse us of being blind?? roflm…

    This whole series on atheism that I’ve posted started because of Keith’s posting several postings ago that insists that religion is indoctrinating children, while thinking his atheism pristine as it offers pure naturalistic hope to all mankind. What a load of utter hogwash!

    Atheism is just as indoctrinating and guilty of pushing its dogma and beliefs off on the public in exactly the same ways. The truth is, most hypocrites are not aware of their own hypocrisy. Atheism has now become a prime example of this phenomenon. I will never look at it in quite the same way again.

  36. @Ark

    Dear, you are a “reborn atheist.” Born again in your non belief and determined to evangelize the word press community through your blog, just as I am in my belief. Please. Get honest and then let’s talk, all right?

  37. @Ubi
    “But I still disagree about Camp Quest being any kind of “indoctrination”. They teach things like “you don’t have to believe everything you are told” and “don’t be afraid to ask questions” and “you are allowed to work it out for yourself”. They even avoid calling kids “atheist children”, and instead use phrases like “children of atheist parents” because it’s not fair for adults to impose labels on kids. If that’s “indoctrination” then what would a lack of indoctrination look like?”

    Ubi, if you will read some of the articles and research done on Camp Quest from those who don’t support it, or even those who are simply observers and unbiased, I think you’ll discover why it’s considered “indoctrinating.”

  38. @Sabio

    “Christians who dominate a country have told their Atheists to hush for a long time. Speaking out and saying we don’t believe in Mohammed is a prophet, a Holy Spirit, or Obama is a savior should not bring anyone’s wrath. We should be so use to a free country, that this is totally tolerated. It shouldn’t even be offensive when someone tells you what they believe.

    You may be sad at someone else’s beliefs, I get that.”

    I agree with you one hundred percent. We must all have religious freedom to share and express our beliefs freely in this nation, America. It would be ideal if this was the case all over this world.

  39. I have just now spoken with someone who has direct experience with Camp Quest: my 13-year old daughter who attended last summer. Here’s the conversation:

    Me: This blog post is claiming that Camp Quest is indoctrinating children to be atheists.
    Her: What?
    Me: At Camp Quest did they ever tell you that you should be an atheist?
    Her: No.
    Me: Did they ever tell you not to believe in god?
    Her: No.
    Me: Did they mention god at all? Or mention religion in any way?
    Her: No and no.

    I asked her if the mission statement and vision statements above were a good description of what the camp was about, and she confirmed they were. Also, pancakes!

    So there you have it, from the only person in this conversation who has actual first-hand experience with the camp, rather than an article you read somewhere. It’s not scary, and it’s not churning out “evil little things”. Parents who want a summer camp that will discuss ethics and values without any religious baggage now have this option. It’s long overdue.

  40. @ the Warrioress
    You’ve got to stop praising me. I will lose my blog readership!
    🙂
    But finally I get to disagree.
    You said:

    Atheism is just as indoctrinating and guilty of pushing its dogma and beliefs off on the public in exactly the same ways.

    That both are doing indoctrination is certainly true. That both are “pushing their dogma and beliefs off on the public in EXACTLY the same ways.” is most certainly false. Sure, we may share many ways — as you point out well. But I wager there are important difference — like how the two groups treat doubt. But that would be the interesting conversation — not “who is indoctrinating and who is not”.

    Now that I have perhaps pissed off some atheists, and I doubt I picked up even one Theist reader. I will go back to my withering blog!
    Just kidding. 🙂

  41. @Sabio

    That was quite funny. I will stop praising you but I must admit that it’s annoying to see only one atheist recognize the obvious, and yes, I will give you the possibility of being right in that perhaps not all ways we indoctrinate are the same. That would be quite the discussion though to find the various differences.

    Until you are able to convince these other atheists that they are biased and wrong, however, I don’t see how we can possibly proceed.

  42. Hey Ubi dubium:
    Thanx for the ‘testimony’ — the camp sounds fantastic. I was showing my son a bit about it. Lots of outside activities, science and critical thinking skills. If it had “Why you should be an atheist” propaganda, I definitely would not send my son. He is too young to be anything but a kid now. Heck, I wasn’t an atheist until I came back to America from Asia when Christians reminding me, with condemning tones, that I was an atheist. It was more interesting without the label. I don’t want my son to have it.

    Your story of the camp sounds fun & healthy. Thanx
    — Sabio

  43. Hey all,
    I put up a poll about God, Heaven and Hell for both Atheists and Theists. Please do stop by and take the poll is you get a chance.
    Warrioress, you might like trying to use WordPress Polls — they are fun.

  44. I have stated time and time again. I don’t care what you believe , just don’t proselytize. The only reason an atheist will repudiate the christian dogma is because you state it is the only way. This is a blatant lie.
    I would not dream of attempting to convert you to atheism. I only dispute what you claim as truth.
    So, I reiterate, repudiate the lie that states any non-christian will go to hell.
    This is being honest. Can you do this?

  45. @Warrioress
    “What a steaming pile of…You are completely indoctrinated, Ark, toward the atheist cause. You sound exactly like the Four Horsemen, good little atheist soldier that you are. You’re indoctrinated into the atheist cult, all right, and everything you say has already been said before. Thank God Sabio is at least capable of honesty and is not blind in his denial.”

    Atheism is not a a cult. A cult of non-belief is a ridiculous notion.

    I for one do not hang out in old halls drinking tea and plotting the downfall of theology. What a silly girl.

    I have explained umpteen times how I arrived at my own personal insight of the garbage you adhere to…however,once again.
    During a piece I was writing about Moses, I discovered there was nothing outside of the bible to back up the story. NOTHING.
    This I pursued until the inevitable conclusion was drawn: It is a fictional account, constructed (in all likelihood) during the Babylonian captivity.
    This led me to investigate the rest of the bible including Christianity, which ended up with investigations of Jesus and Creationism.
    Thus, I rejected the biblical account of these characters and events as largely fictional.
    I have no objection to what you believe. I don’t even object that you believe it is all truth. I DO object to you and others of a similar disposition espousing these beliefs in a public forum as the only truth, and worse, tacitly damning non-believers to Hell, and worst of all, heinous even, preaching this dogma to children who have little defenses.
    Atheism refutes the doctrine of religion. But is does not condemn if others think differently.

  46. Ark:

    “I DO object to you and others of a similar disposition espousing these beliefs in a public forum as the only truth, and worse, tacitly damning non-believers to Hell, and worst of all, heinous even, preaching this dogma to children who have little defenses.
    Atheism refutes the doctrine of religion. But is does not condemn if others think different.”

    You’re espousing your beliefs in a public forum, as are the other atheists and if you’re not declaring it as “the only truth,” I don’t know what you’re doing. Re-read your own blog. You are insulting believers and are preaching your dogma to whomever will listen, but most primarily to the non-religious in the attempt to make more converts.

    Atheism does not “refute the doctrine of religion.” Atheism does little more than insult believers and attempt to convert and indoctrinate others into its dogma. It does not condemn if others think differently? Oh my…now I’m laughing!

    Your blog on nearly 3/4 of the posts, insults those who think differently fairly regularly. You insult those who are religious, who believe in the supernatural, consistently.

  47. Sabio,

    It’s been a pleasure discussing things with you and I’ve learned a lot from you thus far. It was productive. And yes, I will stop by since I’m following you now, and will take the poll. I may incorporate one of the polls into a future blog. And thanks for telling me about the hierarchies, Sabio. I really appreciate your participation here.

  48. I’m sorry. You seem to have misunderstood.I have never once condemned a Christian to eternal damnation- not that I’m aware and if you find an example I will issue an apology.
    I have never even once suggested that a christian become an atheist on my blog. In fact I have said on more than one occasion that noone can change another individual. The individual can only change themselves.
    As for insulting….well, If you consider telling someone they are not nice for inculcating children and spreading a doctrine as truth that can not be demonstrably proved is an insult, then all I can say is suck it up.

    Beside, anyone who actually believes in the veracity of scripture, who considers the bible inerrant is either deluding themselves, genuinely needs help or is simply an idiot.
    Which one are you?
    Ask Sabio which one he was? Bet it wasn’t an idiot.

  49. Thank you, Warrioress.
    Likewise.
    I am sure I shall offend at sometime — given our positions, we should not be to comfortable at times.
    But I wager (as CS Lewis said), good Buddhists often have more in common with some Christians than many of their fellow Christians. Being “Christian” is (IMHO) not the bottom line. The bottom line can not be discerned by us. You feel your God can but we both agree, it is not easy for us to fathom.

  50. @ Ark,
    I won’t jump in. The tone & style is not to my liking. Sorry

  51. Before I gave myself completely over to following Jesus Christ and the bible, I regularly studied Buddhism and thought a lot of the philosophy. It has a lot of good ideals to offer. In some ways it really is compatible with the bible, and in some ways not, but yes, Sabio, I have no doubt we’ll offend one another over time, but I like the fact that you try not to and that you are quite candid and honest when you’re engaged on a difficult topic.

  52. @ Warrioress:
    Just to clarify: I am not Buddhish in any sense you may normally use the word. I have criticized Buddhism much on my blog. But I like many Buddhist insights into understanding how our minds work. Reincarnation, karma, Boddhisattvas and the like are all nonsense to me.

    Thanks for the compliments. It will be interesting to see how we do on dialogue over the coming months.

  53. Ark,

    I’m sorry you’re offended that the bible says you will go to hell, and that any non-Christian (non-believer in Jesus Christ) will go to hell. I do believe you’ll have to take it up with God and the writers of the bible, though…not me; I don’t think it is a lie. I believe the bible.


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