Posted by: the warrioress | December 5, 2013

How Can A Christian….. ?

English: Barack Obama delivering his electoral...

(Photo credit: Wikipedia)

“How can a Christian vote for President Obama when he supports abortion and gay marriage? You can’t be a real Christian if you vote for or support President Obama or the political left. If you do vote Democratic, you’re being led by Satan. You must choose.

Choose left? You’re choosing the devil.”

There are actually bloggers who claim Christianity who feel this way, who blog this kind of thing, who go to astounding lengths to accuse and hound other Christians who feel differently than they do, politically-speaking.

It is extremely frustrating to read these kinds of blogs/bloggers too often. I do my best not to, but sometimes I just can’t help but take a little gander and it never fails to outrage me when I do.  I know that these Christians are entitled to their own erroneous opinions, but I worry about the example that they are setting. I worry about how many of the unsaved they are driving away from our precious Savior, Jesus Christ.

The stupid question/comment above in italics is a common, repetitive theme on these kinds of blogs, by these kinds of people. They insist that they are “real” Christians and that the rest of us are misguided, under Satan’s rule, and on our way to the lake of fire, in their opinion. They actually attempt to quote scripture in support of their personal opinions. This cherry-picking, and contortionist twisting of the bible is enough to leave one truly shivering, and not with the cold out of doors either.  This is scary stuff.

First of all, I don’t believe that President Obama “supports” abortion. I think President Obama is in favor of the law above all, and he knows that women will get abortion one way or another if they feel that they need one. When we make abortion completely illegal and unavailable, it still occurs, but not only does the baby die, the mother often dies as well. We don’t want this to happen; we don’t want to go back to the dark ages where women died in back-alley dungeons in the hands of sociopathic butchers. President Obama does not support that kind of madness, nor do I. We have no choice but to keep abortion legal, but fight to reduce the need through a host of avenues, in BIPARTISAN fashion.

President Obama believes that every citizen of America should have equal rights, including minorities, women, Muslims, and people who belong to the LGBTQ community. He is standing up for the rights of all of these just as he continues to stand up for the elderly, working poor, infirmed, unemployed, uninsured, homeless, and the downtrodden. He is a professor of LAW. He chooses to be fair and reasonable, regardless of what is going on in a person’s private bedroom. He sees gay marriage as a civil right, and that’s his right to see it that way.

As a Christian, I don’t have to agree with gay marriage or abortion to stand with President Obama’s primary politics — (which I believe are much more “Christian” and “Christ-like” than the politics of the far religious right). I’m of the personal opinion that far right wing politics are anything but Christian, and are a trick of Satan himself.  However…..

As Christians, we can vote for whom we choose to vote for, and anyone who judges us or our Christianity because of our different opinions exhibits rotten, ugly fruit of the spirit that belies the truth. There is no love, no Holy Spirit, and no life within a mouthful of hate that spews forth a mauling & twisting of the Holy Bible, God’s word, with an rigid Republican interpretation and agenda attached to it.

When I see these blogs/bloggers venting their rage and antiquated diatribes of viciousness, I normally attempt to pray for the owners and writers of said blog and ignore their writings — but when they continue day after day, I think it’s important to make a stand and express an alternative point of view about what Christianity really is and what it is supposed to look like.

Christianity looks like Jesus Christ. If you can’t see Jesus sharing whatever is being said, somebody needs to get back into their bible and start fighting their battles on their knees instead of bickering and causing division in a public forum.

I hope no one is being fooled and this so saddens me. I especially worry about the innocent who read these kinds of postings, who won’t want any part of Jesus Christ if that is what a Christian looks like.

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Responses

  1. Amen!!!! One of biggest frustrations. You can be a Christian and be wrong. It’s really easy, be a tea party member, Lol. Probably not the best place for that joke.

  2. Goodnight sweet princess. Pleasant dreams to you. Merry Christmas to you and your babe—and the animal babes too.

  3. It does make one pause and think. For which when I bother to respond at all it goes something like this “You are so closed minded that talking with you I could be arrested for breaking and entering!”

  4. Well written post! I always ask – “What would Jesus do?” And if I can’t see Jesus doing it, I figure it must be wrong. I’ve been accused of being simple minded because of it, but when you realize Jesus set the example of how we are to live and treat others, you then realize there is no other way.
    Many christians forget they are the living example of the Church. We are to be winning souls for Jesus not turn them away.

  5. In your article you clearly state that by the President standing tall for the rights of others as a matter of fairness, he is being more fair than God Himself who clearly condemns same sex maariage and the practice of homosexuality. Plus you say the President does not support or promote abortion. Oh, my! I think you actually believe this.

  6. it is those same HEATHENS, I mean, false Christians that would shoot Jesus dead with their LEGAL GUNS if HE were alive today..and it is those same FALSE Christians that will now push for RELIGIOUS PERSONHOOD…beware!

  7. I don’t understand the term “Religious Personhood.” Could you please explain that? Thanks!!!

  8. Many folk build their beliefs for or against The Bible according to their own logic. Rather than just believing what God says, they set themselves up as the decider of right or wrong. I’ll use the abortion issue as an example. Some will think after reading what I write the article is about abortion, but it is not. The subject is how logic can cloud the mind.

    Here is a statement from a person who is for abortion but at the same time against abortion. Right off, you may say, how can that be? First, politicians convince us all the time of how they are against something but at the same time are for something. The following atatement is from a woman who says she is against abortion yet she is pro choice.

    “First of all, I don’t believe that President Obama “supports” abortion. I think President Obama is in favor of the law above all, and he knows that women will get abortion one way or another if they feel that they need one. When we make abortion completely illegal and unavailable, it still occurs, but not only does the baby die, the mother often dies as well. We don’t want this to happen; we don’t want to go back to the dark ages where women died in back-alley dungeons in the hands of sociopathic butchers. President Obama does not support that kind of madness, nor do I. We have no choice but to keep abortion legal, but fight to reduce the need through a host of avenues, in BIPARTISAN fashion.”

    She says President Obama does not support abortion, he is simply in favor of the law. Contradictory statement? Yes, but she goes on to explain.

    “When we make abortion completely illegal and unavailable, it still occurs, but not only does the baby die, the mother often dies as well.” She says, when abortion is illegal not only does the baby die, the Mother dies as well. Of course this is not true. It is not good logic, simply because it is not true.

    “Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36 years of
    pediatric surgery, I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life. If toward the end of the pregnancy
    complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, the doctor will induce labor or perform a Caesarean section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby’s life is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger.”

    -C. Everett Koop, M.D., former U.S.
    Surgeon General

    She argues that old law against abortion made illegal abortions back alley dungeons where the Mother often died, therefor she Like Obama is in favor of the law. She inserts a falsehood in the her logic and thus stands against what God teaches. She also uses the same wrong logic to support same sex marriage and the practice of homo sexuality even though Gods Word is very clear on the subject.

    “President Obama believes that every citizen of America should have equal rights, including minorities, women, Muslims, and people who belong to the LGBTQ community. He is standing up for the rights of all of these just as he continues to stand up for the elderly, working poor, infirmed, unemployed, uninsured, homeless, and the downtrodden. He is a professor of LAW. He chooses to be fair and reasonable, regardless of what is going on in a person’s private bedroom. He sees gay marriage as a civil right, and that’s his right to see it that way.”

    Obviously she believes President Obama is more fair than God.

    Here is some verses that each one of us should put foremost in our minds.

    ” For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my
    ways, saith the LORD.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. ” Isaiah 55:8-9

    It makes no difference what we think, when God says it, that settles it.

  9. By Dr. Bruce Prescott—A Baptist Preacher and Friend of Mine in Oklahoma:

    “I’ve learned that the only way to hold your own in a political game with Fundamentalists is to turn the tables on them. That’s why I always keep a quote from C. Everrett Koop handy. C. Everrett Koop was the Surgeon General in the Reagan Administration. He co-authored, with Francis Schaeffer, the book and film series that educated most evangelicals about abortion — Whatever Became of the Human Race. In Bill Martin’s book, With God On Our Side: The Rise of the Religious Right in America, Koop explains why he dropped out of the abortion controversy:

    If the pro-life people in the late 1960’s and the early 1970’s had been willing to compromise with the pro-choice people, we could have had an abortion law that provided for abortion only for the life of the mother, incest, rape, and defective child; that would have cut the abortions down to three percent of what they are today. But they had an all-or-nothing mentality. They wanted it all and they got nothing.
    Note that the exceptions Koop described coincide exactly with the exceptions that Southern Baptists supported before the political takeover of the SBC. Since the takeover, Southern Baptists have shifted to the “all-or-nothing mentality.”

    The truth is, even if the Fundamentalists were correct about all abortions being murder, then conservative Christian intransigence is responsible for 97% of the murders and compromising mainstream Christians are guilty of 3%. None of us will come out of this guiltless, but one percentage requires a lot less grace.

  10. @Jim Finn:

    I did a little research on how illegal abortion has impacted women in the past. You should find it interesting, as negative history obviously offers us warning about returning to what didn’t work in the past.

    “Estimates of the number of illegal abortions in the 1950s and 1960s ranged from 200,000 to 1.2 million per year. One analysis, extrapolating from data from North Carolina, concluded that an estimated 829,000 illegal or self-induced abortions occurred in 1967.

    One stark indication of the prevalence of illegal abortion was the death toll. In 1930, abortion was listed as the official cause of death for almost 2,700 women—nearly one-fifth (18%) of maternal deaths recorded in that year. The death toll had declined to just under 1,700 by 1940, and to just over 300 by 1950 (most likely because of the introduction of antibiotics in the 1940s, which permitted more effective treatment of the infections that frequently developed after illegal abortion). By 1965, the number of deaths due to illegal abortion had fallen to just under 200, but illegal abortion still accounted for 17% of all deaths attributed to pregnancy and childbirth that year. And these are just the number that were officially reported; the actual number was likely much higher.

    Poor women and their families were disproportionately impacted. A study of low-income women in New York City in the 1960s found that almost one in 10 (8%) had ever attempted to terminate a pregnancy by illegal abortion; almost four in 10 (38%) said that a friend, relative or acquaintance had attempted to obtain an abortion. Of the low-income women in that study who said they had had an abortion, eight in 10 (77%) said that they had attempted a self-induced procedure, with only 2% saying that a physician had been involved in any way.

    These women paid a steep price for illegal procedures. In 1962 alone, nearly 1,600 women were admitted to Harlem Hospital Center in New York City for incomplete abortions, which was one abortion-related hospital admission for every 42 deliveries at that hospital that year. In 1968, the University of Southern California Los Angeles County Medical Center, another large public facility serving primarily indigent patients, admitted 701 women with septic abortions, one admission for every 14 deliveries.

    A clear racial disparity is evident in the data of mortality because of illegal abortion: In New York City in the early 1960s, one in four childbirth-related deaths among white women was due to abortion; in comparison, abortion accounted for one in two childbirth-related deaths among nonwhite and Puerto Rican women.

    Even in the early 1970s, when abortion was legal in some states, a legal abortion was simply out of reach for many. Minority women suffered the most: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that in 1972 alone, 130,000 women obtained illegal or self-induced procedures, 39 of whom died. Furthermore, from 1972 to 1974, the mortality rate due to illegal abortion for nonwhite women was 12 times that for white women.”

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html

    As for your assertion that I think President Obama is more fair than God, I said nothing of the kind. You said what you did, not I. Your assumptions about what others think and feel are usually in error and I find these continuous assumptions from everything related to politics and religion to be difficult to accept or debate as it would take hours upon hours; I just don’t have that kind of time.

    I already explained my take on why President Obama is defending the law regarding keeping abortion legal and did similarly with his take on gay marriage/homosexuality. Period.

    Personally, I don’t understand the religious right’s insistence upon judging the sin of homosexual intimacy as greater than say the sin of lust and looking at internet pornography, or the sin of adultery, or the countless other sins which Christian men and women regularly engage in this country on a daily basis. I find it convenient and peculiar that the religious right tend to pick at the splinter in someone else’s eyes while ignoring the BEAM within their own.

    It’s interesting that the political right is so interested in saving the unborn fetus but as soon as the fetus takes its first breath of air and it is born, Republican Christians began moaning and persecuting those same children they claim they wanted to save because their parents feed them with food stamps or go to the food bank. You also don’t want to see them benefit from health care either, do you? Your “concern” for the baby is there until that child is actually out of its mother’s womb and then its another mouth you don’t want to feed with your precious taxes, eh? Inconsistent & hypocritical that … isn’t it?

    Nagging about and persecuting others over their personal sin (homosexual desires/intimacy) as a way of blogging seems like an odd manner of perpetrating the Great Commission forth, doesn’t it? Driving others away through petty insults, argument, and insistence that hell awaits them because they lust after their own sex is an ineffective technique in witnessing to the unsaved or to gay Christians in my opinion. And the bible clearly tells us not to argue or debate among ourselves as Christian brethren; yet you spend the majority of your blogging time doing exactly that on your blog, as does your compadre, Sage.

    Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. Titus 3: 1-2

    Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 2 Timothy 2: 23-24

    Why should you judge your brother? Why should you argue and be upset with your brother? We will all stand before Christ to be judged. Romans 14:10

    So, do not judge your Christian brother any more about these things. Do not make your brother fall in his faith by what he sees you do. (If your Christian brother thinks it is wrong to eat meat—-when you are with him do not eat meat. Save eating of meat when you are alone.) Romans 14:13

    Jim, you block and ban me from your blog after directly insulting me and the rest of us who vote for Democrats, but then have the audacity to come and freely argue upon mine? You tell me I’m going to hell because I voted for President Obama, you say that I’m not a real Christian because of this very thing, but you don’t see this as insulting me or the rest of us who don’t think exactly like you do. You insist that you’re right and that you know the mind of God through your view of what the bible says. I see no mercy or compassion within your judgments though, and I know without question that there is mercy and compassion within God’s.

    You don’t know anyone’s heart. How dare you attempt to judge your brother’s and declare that they are going to hell and that they aren’t really saved?

    Let’s look beyond the beating of the dead homosexual horse for a moment to your insistence that voting Republican is proof of the “real Christian” way of being and doing. If we look at scripture below, we see quite clearly that the Republicans/Conservatives have it wrong through so many of their political views and they are definitely engaged in deep sin in the process:

    Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. …James 5: 1-20

    I do believe it will be the well off religious right who may be seeing hell before even the homosexuals, Jim. Of course, I never hear these scriptures taught via conservatives though; I wonder why that is.

    You’ve been told not to oppress the poor, the fatherless, or the widow by scripture as well. Republican believers regularly do all of these though, through voting Republican candidates into office. More sin. Yes, I think there are enough beams within the Republican party to keep your side of the aisle busy in repentance, don’t you, Jim?

    Shall we continue about the sins you’ve committed onto our world and environment via Republican insistence that there be no accountability (EPA standards)??

    What about the insistence that greed and love of Mammon (money) be your guide instead of love of what God blessed us with, admonishing us to be good stewards of the earth and all of His creatures upon it?

    We could debate forever, Jim. I think you get my point.

    Deal with your many beams…. homosexuality and abortion will still be there when you’re through. Thanks for listening.

  11. Everybody else:

    I’m so sorry I haven’t kept up with comments again. I’m going to reply to all of you asap. I have a close personal friend in the hospital who is in critical condition, whom my daughter and I are visiting and praying for so I’m not around right now near the ‘puter. As soon as I can get back here and take a few minutes, I’ll reply to the rest of you. I greatly appreciate all of your contributions and thank you for them!!

    (hugs)

    Adrienne

  12. Just to put what Dr. Koop said in tight perspective, the anti-abortion folks claim that 55,000,000 unborn babies have been killed since the early 1970s. The 97 percent that the anti-abortion group could have easily saved is 53,350,000 unborn children. But no!!!! Rather than save 53,350,000 unborn children that were totally within their power to save, they did what all people like Reverend Finn do. They choose to see human existence and everything in human culture as either all black or all white, all evil or all good, all light or all darkness, and all light switch on or all light switch off. Nothing ever exists in a gray area. Rather than save 53,350,000 unborn children that were easily within their power to save, they switched into all or nothing mode. They voted for all—and like Dr. Koop and Dr. Prescott said—they got nothing—and 53,350,000 unborn children died as a direct result of it.

    This type of stiff-necked, willful, and sinful intransigence is the hallmark of the insane, man-created religious tradition that people like Reverend Finn follow. Some call it Christian, but I see nothing much about it that is truly Christ-like. If Jesus were alive in human body form here today, I feel certain within my own heart that Reverend Finn and his extremist cohorts would be in the front row crying out, “Crucify him!!! Crucify him!!! Crucify him!!!” The Scribes and Pharisees of the 1st century sold Jesus out. Scribes and Pharisees have existed within the Christian faith at every time in human history, including our own, because human nature never really changes, even after people are saved. Just ask the Apostle Paul. There are always humans who have the Scribe and Pharisee worldview. Reverend Finn and his cohorts are the Scribes and Pharisees of the modern day. This is why he is after Adrienne with such a passion. Deep down inside, in the cordoned off “Jesus Area” that he never visits, he knows that her perspective on the gospel and her understanding of the Bible and Jesus are right and true. It is just at odds with all of the lies and misunderstandings about the Bible that his religious tradition has concocted and pounded into his head since he was a small child. He has never known anything else. He will die as an adherent of those lies and misunderstandings.

    Lest anyone here think that I am being too harsh with Reverend Finn for his attacks on Adrienne and his insistence that she cannot possibly be a “true” Christian (whatever that is), I would refer you to Matthew 23. Jesus was harsh with the Scribes and Pharisees in his own time. If we are to have the same mind in us that is in Christ Jesus, we too may need to sometimes repeat Jesus’s model in how to deal with the Scribes and Pharisees of our own time. This is because their commitment to their peculiar form of religious pride and their willingness to bludgeon others with it transcends reason, common sense, and a normal conversation with a fellow human. We are dealing with people who are old, set in their ways, off the deep end, and unlikely to ever change. Because they are so far gone, Jesus knew (as the old saying goes) that you first have to crack them over the head with a 2 X 4 just to get their attention. I think the harshness Jesus uses was one last desperate attempt to reach them, even though He probably knew that they were incapable of changing and would soon preside over his death.

  13. First it was not me who blocked you. You insulted Sage personally. Second not one time did I ever say you were on your way to Hell. Yes, I did say Obama by his actions supports laws that are contrary to what God has clearly said. If you chose to believe Obama over God it is certainly your freedom and choice. One rule that I believe in that you apparently do not is, “That it is never right to do wrong.” If God says it is wrong, it is God who is judging not me. If you believe I am wrong to stand on Gods side that is up to you. None of this is a personal insult, it is stating facts. Never once have I used personal language to attack you. If you read all of what you write and compare, you might see it differently.

  14. No need to reply to me Ms. A. However, I do very much hope and pray that your friend in the hospital will recover and have a happy Christmas. Being with her is the loving thing to do right now. This is one of my favorite movie scenes:

  15. The theme of homosexuality is probably the most misunderstood topic in the conservative right.
    1/ First off, the Old Testament never condemned lesbianism. At this time , women were often sex slaves and lesbianism was sometimes the only way to escape the machist rules.
    2/ The destruction of Sodom has nothing to do with gay relationships. GOD punished the rapists !!!
    3/ The New Testament does not speak about homosexuality . Am I wrong ?

    I don’t have a stable opinion about male homosexuality ; I guess I don’t care because I know I’m not gay , but I wonder if those who are so focused about homosexuality are not …

  16. Adrienne- this was a well-written and well-reasoned post. Christ was about Love- and while that doesn’t mean anything goes, I will side with those who respect and try to understand people who think or believe differently from themselves over those who opt for the cheap grace of legalism every time. I will also join you and others in praying for your friend.
    And Dover1952- I loved that scene and now have to find the time to go back and watch the whole film.

    In Christ,
    Mark

  17. UPDATE:

    My friend that was in the ICU died last night. He was removed from the ventilator by his family about 8pm. My daughter and I are distressed and grieving. I will return and catch up with comments etc., after we’ve had some time to grieve. God bless all of you and thank you for sharing here.

  18. Love and condolences to you Ms. A.

  19. Thank you, Tracy/Dover. (hugs) I appreciate the comments you made as well. Intriguing thoughts you shared.

  20. Mark Anderson,

    Thanks so much for stopping here and reading and commenting. I’m glad you enjoyed the posting. I was a little hyped-up when I wrote it, but it was for a good reason, I believe. Thanks for praying for my friend. Unfortunately, he has since passed away, but I do hope he’s in a better place. We will miss him.

  21. Serendipity,

    There are a lot of differing thoughts on what the bible is saying regarding homosexuality. I’m inclined to leave this between the individual and God. If God isn’t happy about something, He will make Himself and His will known to the Christian believer. His Holy Spirit convicts our conscience when we’re in the wrong or doing wrong. As far as screaming fire and brimstone goes, I’ll leave that to those who believe that they are entitled to judge; I’m not. I’ve got enough on my plate dealing with my own sins and errors in daily living. Thanks so much for reading and commenting here and I hope you return again!

  22. Tracy,

    Again, thank you for your consistent comments and thoughts on my various postings, including this one. I know that you are someone who doesn’t mince words, nor do I. Sometimes love has to be tough in order to get through. Sometimes, no matter how gentle we are, we aren’t heard. I hope you were heard this time and I hope I was heard. I don’t think there is much more that we can do than what we’ve done and said. God bless you for sharing here, Tracy.

  23. Realeyezlife,

    Thank you so much for consistently sharing on my various postings. God bless you!

  24. Ed, I agree. If I can’t see Jesus doing it or saying it, it is wrong. Jesus set a wonderful example and we are to be the same living example, as you said. We’re in agreement, which is always nice. (hugs)

  25. I got your back cause you are Warrioress who speaks the truth 😉

  26. Hi Dr. Denis!

    Close-minded can also be someone who is unwilling to allow the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit within his or her life. This is sad because we grow spiritually through learning new things and being tutored by the presence of the Holy Spirit in our walk with Christ. If we’re so set in our ways that we think we already know it all, we’re going to be stagnant in our walk and it will show.

  27. Tracy/Dover, thank you again for your support.

  28. Sacred Struggler 🙂

    lol…. God bless and thank you for the comment.

  29. 🙂


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